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Hi Ken;
Bang. Bang. Another person who believes in Calvinism exercises his freewill and resist the holy spirit.
Just kidding Ken;
Fact; How you going to resist the Holy Spirit after you already have him. Sinning is not resisting Him but, is exercising freewill. Resisting him is the act of, not letting Him come into your heart and save you.
If sinning is resisting Him then the moment you sinned you would be unsavable.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Romanbear
Bang. Bang. Another person who believes in Calvinism exercises his freewill and resist the holy spirit.
Just kidding Ken;
Fact; How you going to resist the Holy Spirit after you already have him. Sinning is not resisting Him but, is exercising freewill. Resisting him is the act of, not letting Him come into your heart and save you.
If sinning is resisting Him then the moment you sinned you would be unsavable.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Romanbear
J
Jimmy J.
Guest
Sounds like Bill fired away alright, and blew your argument out of the water!
The best you could come up with was, "Which is precisely why we sin."
So, you are saying we sin because we resist the Holy Spirit's indwelling? Yet you maintain the Calvinistic premise that the Holy Spirit is effectual and irresistable in indwelling whomever He desires to indwell????
You are not making any sense Ken!
KenH
Well-Known Member
We don't have free will - Adam lost that in the Fall in the Garden of Eden. We have only free choice within the confines of our nature. Even after we are saved, we still live in unrenewed fleshly bodies - therefore we still sin - only the believer's soul has been resurrected in this life, not his body.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Ken H,
We are not sitting on a high horse. We have bowed the knee, on the ground, to the One who will in the future be sitting on a 'white horse' whose name is 'Faithful and True.' [Revelation 19:11]
We will, however, not retreat from making a defence of the faith. [Philippians 1:7 & 17] We like the Apostle Paul are ' . . . set for the defence of the {true} Gospel.'
Oh, by the way, if the faith that we enjoy is only from God, then I Peter 1:9 needs to be rewritten. It should then be changed to 'Receiving the end of God's faith, even the salvation of your souls.' But, the Lord God wrote it this way. 'Receiving the end of YOUR FAITH, even the salvation of your souls.'
We are not sitting on a high horse. We have bowed the knee, on the ground, to the One who will in the future be sitting on a 'white horse' whose name is 'Faithful and True.' [Revelation 19:11]
We will, however, not retreat from making a defence of the faith. [Philippians 1:7 & 17] We like the Apostle Paul are ' . . . set for the defence of the {true} Gospel.'
Oh, by the way, if the faith that we enjoy is only from God, then I Peter 1:9 needs to be rewritten. It should then be changed to 'Receiving the end of God's faith, even the salvation of your souls.' But, the Lord God wrote it this way. 'Receiving the end of YOUR FAITH, even the salvation of your souls.'
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Who says that man can contribute to his own salvation? Armenians and others say that God's work is finished with the Atonement sacrifice of God's only Son on the cross, and now it is up to each individual human, the whosoever's, to hear God's word, and Believe on his only begotten son and by such being saved from eternal damnation. There is no work in hearing, or in believing, the work is already done in Christ. All that is left for us to do is believe, then act according to our belief.
What would Glorify God more than to have his created human beings choose Him? What brings more honor to you than having someone choose you? Dictator's derive their "place of honor" by forced subjugation of the people. Democracies elect (choose) their leaders thus bringing them honor. For God, there is nothing that man can do, we cannot elect God, but we can respond to his call to bring us up from the grave to a place in life eternal. What do you give to one who has everything? LOVE is the answer. God is the one who owns everything, including us. He is not in need of us, but because he created us, we NEED Him. We cannot cause Him to save us, He instead, is the one who established our salvation. He is the one who reached down to us to help us, we did not reach up and grab him, or the hem of his garment, in order to be saved. For you to think that we do, or even can, brings discredit to your interpretation of His Holy Word. The work of redemption is finished in the Christ. There is nothing left for man to do but believe.
It's kind of like going to watch the Wright Brothers first flight of their airplane. No one has flown before, and it was thought not possible. You can hear about the event, you can even go to where the event is to take place hoping to see the impossible, but you do not truly believe in flight until you see the vehicle leave the surly bonds of earth and actually fly. Of course your belief is not based on faith anymore because you have seen what was hoped for take place before your very eyes. The Apostles, even though they had heard a reliable eye witness report, did not believe that Jesus had risen from the grave until they themselves viewed the empty grave. Thomas doubted even the reports from his fellow Apostles until Jesus appeared before him and invited him to investigate for himself. Even the doubter had no choice but to believe! And believing was all that Thomas could do, Jesus had done everything else. Jesus had prophesied his death, burial and his resurrection, and here before Thomas was the proof! How can you reject the truth?
It is easy to believe the truth when it is standing before you. We in the 21st Century since that time do not have the truth that Thomas had before him. We must rely on the Written accounts and either belief or reject based on them. God's word tells us there is death and there is life....choose life! When we do what God says, we Glorify God!
Ray Berrian
New Member
Making a very weak and poor response is not wise. Some of the brethren should do what Mr. Harold Camping does when he gets cornered. He runs and hides behind another verse of Scripture.
In Acts 7:51 the writer is pointing out that the Israelites have always resisted the Holy Spirit never allowing the Holy Spirit to enter their lives. Please, follow the alternate texts in the notes of the Bible, pointing back to the O.T. non-believing Jewish people.
In Acts 7:51 the writer is pointing out that the Israelites have always resisted the Holy Spirit never allowing the Holy Spirit to enter their lives. Please, follow the alternate texts in the notes of the Bible, pointing back to the O.T. non-believing Jewish people.
Ken, faith is a noun. Haven't you ever asked someone, "What faith do you hold to?" Jesus is the author and editor of Christianity's faith.
Jesus wrote it and edited it, we believe (verb) it.
This is like saying God is the author and editor of our Bible and assuming that must mean everyone who owns a Bible must believe it.
Jesus authors faith, but we must still believe it for it to become our faith.
KenH
Well-Known Member
We are saved by Jesus' finished work alone - He did all it - believing, obeying - all of it. I honestly don't think that non-Calvinists believe this as their scheme requires the sinner to repent and believe on his own rather than repentance and faith being gifts from God as the Bible teaches.
ScottEmerson
Active Member
After analyzing this post, I am increasing convinced that this is a very difficult passage for the Calvinist side to answer. When Ken attempted to answer it, we got a cryptic response - one that really doesn't make sense, unless you have a specific a priori assumption. I can only assume it is an assumption as he does not offer any backing.
The fact is that Calvinism is a systemic theology. If one of the five tenets falls, the other four fall as well. The passage that Jimmy presents is very specific as to how the Holy Spirit can be resisted in the context of a salvific experience. Perhaps this specific teaching is so difficult to understand that it has resulted in the kind of rhetoric that has been coming out of Ken's mouth.
I don't think any Arminian here is trying to take any glory away from Jesus Christ. By not understanding our position, Ken, you are placing yourself in the same position that many Calvinists accuse Arminians of doing - of not understanding the other side and making straw man arguments.
After analyzing this, I would have to score a point for the Arminian side. However, I haven't seen Pastor Larry on here, and he always gives good answers. I eagerly await what he has to say!
SEC, who just got back from the Bahamas and is burnt to an absolute crisp in spite of SPF 50 sunscreen...
The fact is that Calvinism is a systemic theology. If one of the five tenets falls, the other four fall as well. The passage that Jimmy presents is very specific as to how the Holy Spirit can be resisted in the context of a salvific experience. Perhaps this specific teaching is so difficult to understand that it has resulted in the kind of rhetoric that has been coming out of Ken's mouth.
I don't think any Arminian here is trying to take any glory away from Jesus Christ. By not understanding our position, Ken, you are placing yourself in the same position that many Calvinists accuse Arminians of doing - of not understanding the other side and making straw man arguments.
After analyzing this, I would have to score a point for the Arminian side. However, I haven't seen Pastor Larry on here, and he always gives good answers. I eagerly await what he has to say!
SEC, who just got back from the Bahamas and is burnt to an absolute crisp in spite of SPF 50 sunscreen...
KenH
Well-Known Member
You are correct. Brother Bill thinks he can come into this forum and put to silence all Calvinist arguments with his threats and warnings. The non-Calvinists always start throwing around their perjoratives and drag the conversation into the mud wrestling pit. And I must admit that I go in with them. I don't know why especially based on the old saying(borrowed) that arguing with an Arminian is like wrestling in the mud with a pig. After a while you realize that you've gotten dirty and the pig is enjoying it.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Your problem, Scott, is that you know I understand your position better than you probably do. As I have pointed out before, I spent most of my life being more than simply an Arminian, but an outright Pelagian.
Let's face facts - I seriously doubt that if the greatest, most airtight debate point was made that knocked the false teaching of salvation by free will out past Pluto was made, that you, or Brother Bill, or Ray, et al, would change your position.
IMHO Brethren,
I have provided scripturally from Genesis why I don't believe man is permitted the use of his will.
First this will of man is very real, but its freedom is a figment of the imagination of man, whose pride still affects him in what he 'will' and 'will not'.
I have been absent from the board and mostly from this forum for a few days, but not because I am running for cover. (I am already covered). What is clear to me is that as the 'arminians' present among us point out a lack of direct meeting is prevalent even from their side.
It is at best contrivance to make man's will free when obviously he is affected by the fall of his first father.
I will say this that man's will is made free by regeneration, then is he able to make the choice you think he could have made before. I think here is the problem. A lack of being willing to assign to God the full work of reconciliation. Seems as if it isn't enough that the Son of God suffered and died on the Cross, there must be hidden in that work somewhere, somehow, something I must do.
No, there is not. Hebs 1.3 declares Christ by himself purged us of our sins. This is the work you imagine your belief, your repentance, your prayer or whatever you have followed to get into your position with God, when scripturally you have been put in that position by Christ's work.
At the time of the first passover, when Israel was in Egypt, could an Egyptian have enjoyed the 'passover' of his household? Yeah, I believe so. Why was the angel of death turned away from the homes where the blood was applied? Was it because the blood was physically applied by man? No, this is the result, it was because God decreed where the blood is found the angel of death had no place, death had already been met by the substitute. The same is for us, our death is met by the substitute, our life is in the blood. When we are regenerated we cannot fully understand this, nor can we years after, but the reconciliation is completed in full by the substitute, the regeneration is the awakening to this knowledge.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
I have provided scripturally from Genesis why I don't believe man is permitted the use of his will.
First this will of man is very real, but its freedom is a figment of the imagination of man, whose pride still affects him in what he 'will' and 'will not'.
I have been absent from the board and mostly from this forum for a few days, but not because I am running for cover. (I am already covered). What is clear to me is that as the 'arminians' present among us point out a lack of direct meeting is prevalent even from their side.
It is at best contrivance to make man's will free when obviously he is affected by the fall of his first father.
I will say this that man's will is made free by regeneration, then is he able to make the choice you think he could have made before. I think here is the problem. A lack of being willing to assign to God the full work of reconciliation. Seems as if it isn't enough that the Son of God suffered and died on the Cross, there must be hidden in that work somewhere, somehow, something I must do.
No, there is not. Hebs 1.3 declares Christ by himself purged us of our sins. This is the work you imagine your belief, your repentance, your prayer or whatever you have followed to get into your position with God, when scripturally you have been put in that position by Christ's work.
At the time of the first passover, when Israel was in Egypt, could an Egyptian have enjoyed the 'passover' of his household? Yeah, I believe so. Why was the angel of death turned away from the homes where the blood was applied? Was it because the blood was physically applied by man? No, this is the result, it was because God decreed where the blood is found the angel of death had no place, death had already been met by the substitute. The same is for us, our death is met by the substitute, our life is in the blood. When we are regenerated we cannot fully understand this, nor can we years after, but the reconciliation is completed in full by the substitute, the regeneration is the awakening to this knowledge.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
This is incorrect. Did the death angel passover because the blood physically applied by man? YES. Why? Because God decreed where the blood is found the angel of death had no place.
The people had to believe God's warning and they had to follow his instruction otherwise they would have lost their firstborn. Yes, this is because of God's work and His promise but you can't dismiss man's responsiblity, this is what you try to do with salvation as well and it's not biblical. Faith is the means that righteousness is applied and faith is man's response to God's call through His HS and the gospel.