If the Holy Spirit can be resisted, how can he be effectual?

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
faith is man's response to God's call through His HS and the gospel.

Faith is man's response after the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Before this, man is dead in trespasses and sins(see Ephesians 2:1-10). Salvation is wholly by the gracious work of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit with no mixture of human works, merit, etc., involved. If man had to "do" something without being regenerated first, he could never do it and no one would be saved.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Bill,

You are correct when you say that everything was pivoted on whether or not the person applied the blood on the door post. The human action in accordance with His plan made the difference. Under the New Covenant, God has ordained that man is responsible to place his faith in Jesus, [John 3:16] Who then applies His own blood to our sinful lives. The atonement is God's and all glory, honor and praise goes to the Lamb of God ' . . . Who takes away the sins of the world.' [John 1:29 & 36]

God's plan is to embrace all the people of the world and not merely as taught by Augustine, the elect of God. Augustine's nearsightedness because he incorporated the non-Christian philosophy of Aristotle and Socrates turning Christian theology into a cold-blooded and heartless view of God who willingly plans for the spiritual demise of His creatures. Only Biblical theology as suggested in much of Arminian theology begins to bring people out of his and Calvin's inadvertent deceptions.

 

[Ray Berrian]

We would gladly agree with others that salvation is Authored and Finished by our Savior alone. But notice God does not say in Hebrews 12:2 that it is His faith given to the elect, He rather suggests that it is He alone who will at last bring us to Heaven. The author of Hebrews says with his congregation that Christ begins and brings about the grand result of our salvation, but that it is ' . . . our faith.'

Only we can believe in this spiritual substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [Hebrews 11:1] God personally gives His grace when we ask of Him. Faith is our response to this holy God.

 

[Frogman]

Is there record of any in Israel not applying the blood because they rejected the revelation of God that the life was protected through the Blood? Is there a record that any in Egypt failed to imitate the Israelite action and were yet punished because there mailbox carried the name of Ham?

No. Bro. Bill, the only reason there is no record of it is because of the illuminating regenerating work of the Holy Spirit that led them to perform the application of the blood upon their doorposts. Still, the reconciliation is found only in the blood of the sacrifice, to not apply it does not remove the truthfulness of this statement. Try as you may. The lack of application resulted from the unbelief of those who did not, why, because they had not the enabling power of the Holy Spirit to believe such things, though they had been long witnesses to the miracles of God, even in the land of Ham.

Thanks for your attempt though, it continues to strengthen me in the truthfulness of the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
faith is man's response to God's call through His HS and the gospel.

Faith is man's response after the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Before this, man is dead in trespasses and sins(see Ephesians 2:1-10). Salvation is wholly by the gracious work of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit with no mixture of human works, merit, etc., involved. If man had to "do" something without being regenerated first, he could never do it and no one would be saved. </font>[/QUOTE]Is Eph. 2 all you got? Even some Calvinistic scholars can't honestly and conclusively concur that the phrase, "this is not of yourself" is actually in reference to faith instead of Grace or salvation in general.

Plus, if you look at Paul's teaching else where concerning boasting and faith, you can clearly see that he doesn't link boasting to the faith. For example, look at Romans 3:27-31:

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By one of works? No, on the contrary, by a law of faith. For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God for Jews only? Is He not also for Gentiles? Yes, for Gentiles too, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then cancel the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

You can clearly see that faith is put up against the works of the law as the means to grace. Righteousness in God's sight is no longer through the works of the law in which man could boast, but it is through faith, in which man can not boast. This same idea carries over in Eph. 2. There is no way you can conclusively determine that Paul's intent was to teach that faith was not already within man's capasity.

You could say that God brings us faith in that he sent the means by which faith comes, through the message, which He gave (Romans 10:17). So, ulimately faith can be credited to God, but that in no way proves that all men don't have the capasity for it. Afterall, it is Paul who writes, "It is with the heart man believes..."

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken H:
Your problem, Scott, is that you know I understand your position better than you probably do. As I have pointed out before, I spent most of my life being more than simply an Arminian, but an outright Pelagian.

That is a fairly brazen statement. I spent most of my life as a Calvinist myself, but this doesn't add much to the discussion. What you are adding is simply rhetoric to skip out on real discussion - especially the discussion of the passage at hand, which you have been unable to answer.

I am not sure, also, that you know my position better than I do. Actually, I am not sure how that is possible.

Let's face facts - I seriously doubt that if the greatest, most airtight debate point was made that knocked the false teaching of salvation by free will out past Pluto was made, that you, or Brother Bill, or Ray, et al, would change your position.

Actually, it took great debates during my years at college, along with the grace and leading of God, for me to abandon my Calvinistic roots. So, debates are not fruitless. However, such debates that you are engaging in - debates that are wrought with straw men and ad hominems will not change my mind at all. By using the Scriptures, instead of running from them, you will have a much better chance of at least doing a service to your position. For some reason, which is slightly uncharacteristic of you, you have ran away from the Word, and in doing so, are becoming more like the Arminians who you criticize.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ken H:
Hebrews 12:2 is the deathknell for your idea that your faith is your own.

Ken, faith is a noun. Haven't you ever asked someone, "What faith do you hold to?" Jesus is the author and editor of Christianity's faith.

Jesus wrote it and edited it, we believe (verb) it.

This is like saying God is the author and editor of our Bible and assuming that must mean everyone who owns a Bible must believe it.

Jesus authors faith, but we must still believe it for it to become our faith. </font>[/QUOTE]Faith is a noun, believe, believing, is a verb.

Which shows action.

A noun is a person place or thing, Faith is a noun, it is an idea, a thing, it is given to man, then man is able to believe, (verb) which is action, if nothing else of thought. This makes it a work, unless the faith given to man makes it possible for him to believe. With each issuing from God, then neither is able to be viewed as a work of man.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Faith is a noun, believe, believing, is a verb.

Which shows action.

A noun is a person place or thing, Faith is a noun, it is an idea, a thing, it is given to man, then man is able to believe, (verb) which is action, if nothing else of thought. This makes it a work, unless the faith given to man makes it possible for him to believe. With each issuing from God, then neither is able to be viewed as a work of man.

To help your understanding, the following is from Webster's Dictionary.

faith, n.
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theol. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

Faith is not given to man, but is rather that which a man develops in someone, or something, or an idea that is outside of the man. God gives to man that which is trustworthy to enable man's faith. God does not give man the faith. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Faith is a noun, believe, believing, is a verb.

Which shows action.

A noun is a person place or thing, Faith is a noun, it is an idea, a thing, it is given to man, then man is able to believe, (verb) which is action, if nothing else of thought. This makes it a work, unless the faith given to man makes it possible for him to believe. With each issuing from God, then neither is able to be viewed as a work of man.

To help your understanding, the following is from Webster's Dictionary.

faith, n.
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theol. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

Faith is not given to man, but is rather that which a man develops in someone, or something, or an idea that is outside of the man. God gives to man that which is trustworthy to enable man's faith. God does not give man the faith. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew,

I believe your understanding prohibits you to see your contradictions. Thanks for the Webster's entry. I have a Webster's Lexicon of the English language and use it quite often. I also am studying to be a Soc.Studies Teacher with an ESL endorsement. I love language and perhaps should add English to my certificate. But I study words very closely and some people around do not like this, but it is the way I am can't seem to help it. I did enjoy the entry though.

You said:

God gives to man that which is trustworthy to enable man's faith.

Still God is seen to enable man's faith here and not the free-will of man, though I concede, once God enables man, then man freely makes the choice to believe.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Still God is seen to enable man's faith here and not the free-will of man, though I concede, once God enables man, then man freely makes the choice to believe.

That is not my meaning.

God does not alter man for man to have faith. God brings before man the things in which man can develop faith by which man can alter his own behavior. For example, God gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth, has faith in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. When man accepts that truth and believes in Jesus, man alters his behavior to conform to the Christ.

None of God's Word is part of man, however it is given to man in order that man can have faith in the message of God's word. The more of God's word that man accepts, the greater the faith.

 

[Jimmy J.]

I've been out of town for a while but I've noticed that no one has answered the original question.

 

[Frogman]

Glad to see ya back Bro. Jim.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Jimmy J.]

Frogman,

Its good to be back, I guess. Still no answers to this question. thats interesting

 

[KenH]

From John Gill's commentary:

Acts 7:51

Ver. 51. Ye stiffnecked,.... Or "hard necked", the same with
Prwe hvq, which is a character frequently given of this people, Ex 32:9 and elsewhere, and is expressive of their obstinacy, stubbornness and refractoriness; who would not submit their necks to the yoke of God's law, and be obedient to his commands:

and uncircumcised in heart and ears; for though they had the mark of circumcision in their flesh, of which they boasted; yet they had not the true circumcision of the heart; their hearts were not circumcised to fear and love the Lord, nor their ears to hear the word of the Lord and the Gospel of Christ; so that notwithstanding their confidence in carnal privileges, they were uncircumcised persons:

ye do always resist the Holy Ghost; the resistance made by these persons was not to the Spirit of God in them, of which they were destitute, but to the Spirit of God in his ministers, in his apostles, and particularly in Stephen; nor to any internal operation of his grace, but to the external ministry of the word, and to all that objective light, knowledge, evidence, and conviction that it gave of Jesus's being the Messiah: and such who resist Christ's ministers, resist him, and such who resist him, may be said to resist his Holy Spirit; and the word here used signifies a rushing against, and falling upon, in a rude and hostile way, and fitly expresses their ill treatment of Christ and his ministers, by falling upon them and putting them to death: which is the resistance here designed, as appears by the following verse: so that this passage is no proof of the resistance of the Holy Spirit, and the operations of his grace in conversion, when he is in men, and acts with a purpose and will to convert them; since it does not appear that he was in these persons, and was acting in them, with a design to convert them; and if he was, it wilt be difficult to prove that they so resisted, and continued to resist, as that they were not hereafter converted; since it is certain that one of them, Saul, was really and truly converted, and how many more we know not. Though it will be allowed, that the Holy Ghost in the operations of his grace upon the heart in conversion may be resisted, that is, opposed; but not so as to be overcome or be hindered in, or be obliged to cease from, the work of conversion, insomuch that may come to nothing:

as your fathers did, so do ye; or as "your fathers were, so are ye"; as they were stiffnecked, self-willed, obstinate, and inflexible, so are ye; as they were uncircumcised in heart and ears, so are ye; and as they resisted the Spirit of God in his prophets, so do ye resist him in the apostles and ministers of the Gospel.

From www.churchinfocus.org/badarg.html:

C. Calvinists have never denied that unregenerate men and women can resist the external or outward call of the Holy Spirit (via the preacher or evangelist), but only that they cannot resist the internal or efficacious call of God’s Spirit unto salvation --- for as Loraine Boettner has aptly declared, “The cause of any person believing is the will of God; and the outward sound of the Gospel strikes the ear but in vain until God is pleased to touch the heart within” (The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, p.359).Thus, when we read such passages as Matthew 23:37 and Acts 7:51, we should interpret them as instances of men obstinately rejecting the outward call of the Spirit unto repentance and faith.

From www.gospeloutreach.net/tulip_defense.html:

Acts 7:51, 24:25:
Arminian Complaint: People can resist the Holy Spirit and consequently, God's offer of salvation. Therefore God's grace is resistible by man's free will.

Answer: People often resist the conviction of the Spirit and God's offer of salvation. The issue is whether the unregenerate can thwart the grace of an omnipotent God. If God according to His appointed time did not overcome the sinner's rebellious will and cause him to accept Jesus Christ by faith, then none would ever be saved.

From grace-for-today.com/675.htm:

5. Arminianism teaches: "The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish."


Holy Scriptures teach otherwise. No sinner will of his own will cooperate with the Holy Spirit, because unregenerate men are told "You always resist the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51). The sinner therefore does not cooperate in his own regeneration by the Holy Spirit, and is instead totally passive in it, and therefore has no more to do with his second birth as he did with his first (John 1:13; 3:3-8). Jesus Christ declared God "gives life to whom He will" (John 5:21).

From www.mbrem.com/calvinism/commongrace.htm:

c. Special grace is irresistible. This does not mean that it is a deterministic force which compels man to believe against his will, but that by changing the heart it makes man perfectly willing to accept Jesus Christ unto salvation and to yield obedience to the will of God. Common grace is resistible, and as a matter of fact is always more or less resisted. Paul shows in Rom. 1 and 2 that neither the Gentiles nor the Jews were living up to the light which they had. Says Shedd: “In common grace the call to believe and repent is invariably ineffectual, because man is averse to faith and repentance and in bondage to sin.” It is ineffectual unto salvation because it leaves the heart unchanged.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The author of Hebrews says with his congregation that Christ begins and brings about the grand result of our salvation, but that it is ' . . . our faith.'

1 Corinthians 4:7 "For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?"

Why do you boast as if it's your faith, as if it was up to you whether or not to have it?

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:
ye do always resist the Holy Ghost; the resistance made by these persons was not to the Spirit of God in them, of which they were destitute, but to the Spirit of God in his ministers, in his apostles, and particularly in Stephen; nor to any internal operation of his grace, but to the external ministry of the word, and to all that objective light, knowledge, evidence, and conviction that it gave of Jesus's being the Messiah: and such who resist Christ's ministers, resist him, and such who resist him, may be said to resist his Holy Spirit; and the word here used signifies a rushing against, and falling upon, in a rude and hostile way, and fitly expresses their ill treatment of Christ and his ministers, by falling upon them and putting them to death: which is the resistance here designed, as appears by the following verse: so that this passage is no proof of the resistance of the Holy Spirit, and the operations of his grace in conversion, when he is in men, and acts with a purpose and will to convert them; since it does not appear that he was in these persons, and was acting in them, with a design to convert them; and if he was, it wilt be difficult to prove that they so resisted, and continued to resist, as that they were not hereafter converted; since it is certain that one of them, Saul, was really and truly converted, and how many more we know not. Though it will be allowed, that the Holy Ghost in the operations of his grace upon the heart in conversion may be resisted, that is, opposed; but not so as to be overcome or be hindered in, or be obliged to cease from, the work of conversion, insomuch that may come to nothing:

I used to love reading Gill as a Calvinist so it is really weird debating his words, but anyway I disagree with his conclusion that he draws from this passage:

He concludes that this is not in reference to a resistance to the internal working of the Holy Spirit. He might be a scholar but that gives him no right just to decide that this passage is not speaking of an internal working of the Holy Spirit in conversion without foundation. The context of this passage is clear in speaking of the indwelling of the Spirit not being in houses but in us. How does that apply to an "internal" working?

Calvinists have never denied that unregenerate men and women can resist the external or outward call of the Holy Spirit (via the preacher or evangelist), but only that they cannot resist the internal or efficacious call of God’s Spirit unto salvation --- for as Loraine Boettner has aptly declared, “The cause of any person believing is the will of God; and the outward sound of the Gospel strikes the ear but in vain until God is pleased to touch the heart within” (The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, p.359).Thus, when we read such passages as Matthew 23:37 and Acts 7:51, we should interpret them as instances of men obstinately rejecting the outward call of the Spirit unto repentance and faith.[/b]

Where in scripture is there a distincition drawn between the outward and the inward calling of the Spirit. This is a doctrine that Calvinist have created to deal with difficult passage, there is no foundation for it whatsoever.

Acts 7:51, 24:25:
Arminian Complaint: People can resist the Holy Spirit and consequently, God's offer of salvation. Therefore God's grace is resistible by man's free will.

Answer: People often resist the conviction of the Spirit and God's offer of salvation. The issue is whether the unregenerate can thwart the grace of an omnipotent God. If God according to His appointed time did not overcome the sinner's rebellious will and cause him to accept Jesus Christ by faith, then none would ever be saved.

This assumes that every man's will is natually rebellious to the point that they wouldn't ever accept Jesus by faith when presented with the outward calling. People are born with a sin nature and guilty of sin and with an inclination toward sin but they are not born total unable as Calvinists teach. They only become hardened in their sin once they have lived in rebellion for a time. Calvinists teach that we are born hardened in our sin but scripture clearly teaches that hardening is a process that takes place over a period of time. If one is presented with the gospel and the "outward calling" of the Spirit before this hardening of their heart sets in they are more capable of seeing the truth and believing.

5. Arminianism teaches: "The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish."

Holy Scriptures teach otherwise. No sinner will of his own will cooperate with the Holy Spirit, because unregenerate men are told "You always resist the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51).

This statement assumes once again that there is a difference between the outward and inward calling of the Spirit. This teaching is no where established in the scriptures.

The sinner therefore does not cooperate in his own regeneration by the Holy Spirit, and is instead totally passive in it, and therefore has no more to do with his second birth as he did with his first (John 1:13; 3:3-8). Jesus Christ declared God "gives life to whom He will" (John 5:21).

The bible clearly teaches that regeration or being made alive is accomplished through faith or belief in the gospel.

Cooperation is just another word for willingness and scripture is clear that our willingness or lack thereof is a determining factor in our salvation.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The author of Hebrews says with his congregation that Christ begins and brings about the grand result of our salvation, but that it is ' . . . our faith.'

1 Corinthians 4:7 "For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?"

Why do you boast as if it's your faith, as if it was up to you whether or not to have it? </font>[/QUOTE]God created us to be independent individuals, he gave us the ability to hear his Word and to have faith in what we hear, thus "owning" that for which we have faith.

Obviously man cannot own God or Jesus or anything spiritual for that matter in a physical possession sense, but we can behave as if we do own them. We are, in fact, told to behave as Children of God meaning that we do "possess God" as our father.

 

[The Archangel]

Yelsew,

God created us to be independent individuals,

ABSOLUTLEY, COMPLETELY, AND TOTALLY WRONG!!!!!

We were created to rely and depend on God totally. This is the nature of Adam's sin. He failed to trust and rely on God. That was the Genesis, if you will, of his sin.

Humans were never designed to be independant of God.

I think you are not understanding what the phrase "In the Image of God" means in its fullest extent.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

[romanbear]

Archangel;
A quote from you;
-------------------------------------------------

I think you are not understanding what the phrase "In the Image of God" means in its fullest extent.
-------------------------------------------------

You being a calvinist telling us we are created in the image of God. Your right we are and we can make choices just like God. Christ Came to save the lost not just the Calvinist.

Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

I wonder how your going to explain this one.

Romanbear

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by romanbear:
You're right we are and we can make choices just like God.

There's an old saying that goes "God created man in His image and ever since man has been trying to repay the favor."

This saying is obviously true in your case, romanbear.