if the pope dies

[CatholicConvert]

Jude --

Hey my good Anglican brother, calm down!! I am not being a shill for the Roman rite. When I said that 15 centuries of Christianity was Catholic, I am talking about the "catholic" (katholicos) faith, NOT the Roman rite. I am saying that in the East, in the West, in the Orient, in Africa, in every place, the FAITH was catholic, or universal.

Now if I, like some of the Latin Rite Trads I have seen, had insisted that the only liturgy that was celebrated was the LATIN MASS (I LIKE Trads, but they are rather subjectivist in their history), then you would be correct in taking me to task.

No, my friend, it was the FAITH which was Catholic, that is, universal, from East to West and North to South, quite unlike Protestantism in its many blends and flavors.

Hope that clears that up.

Brother Ed

 

[mioque]

"As I recall Pope John Paul was not in favor of the liberating of the Iraqi people in our most recent war. Peace at any cost and in the name of God."

Ray
The vast majority of Christians in Iraq are Catholics, under Saddam they suffered little compared to what Christians have to endure in most Middle-eastern countries. Their position is taking a turn for the worse since the Iraqi's got liberated. And now you know the reason behind the pope's opposition in this matter.

 

[CatholicConvert]

The city being spoken of in the Revelation of John is Jerusalem -- not Rome. Jerusalem also sits upon 7 distinct hills, each one having a name of its own.

The book of the Revelation is about the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, which brought the Old Covenant of the Jews to an official end. All that is spoken of revolves around the existing spiritual, geographical, and political issues of that day, and has nothing to do with our times.

However, beginning with Margaret McDonald's pickle and ice cream induced "vision", which was the foundation and beginning of premillenialism, anti-catholics have seized upon the warped interpretations of premillenialism to bolster their position and hatred regarding Christ's Church.

Which just goes to prove two things: you CAN make the Bible teach just about anything you wish, and you do need an infallible interpretor of the Bible to avoid the first situation.

Brother Ed

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi massdak,

You still haven't answered my original question.

I agree with everything in your previous post except for this: "they do not abide in Scripture and the gospel is hardly ever mentioned much less them hardly mentioning the Lord Jesus".

As a graduate student studying theology at a Catholic university, I have read quite a bit of what recent Pontiffs have written, esp. that of Pope John Paul II. With this in mind, from an informed position, I would have to say that you are far from the truth in stating that the popes hardly ever mention the Gospel, Jesus, and Scripture. In fact, this is the body of the vast majority of Encyclicals, Apostolic Exhortations, Apostolic Constitutions, Apostolic Letters, Speeches, Homilies, Letters, and the like.

For example, I lay before you Redemptor Hominis at http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0218/_INDEX.HTM ... Redemptoris Missio at http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0219/_INDEX.HTM ... Dominum et Vivificantem at http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0142/_INDEX.HTM ... and Novo Millennio Ineunte at http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20010106_novo-millennio-ineunte_en.html

I highly doubt that you will read these documents, but I will not leave you without the resources that clearly denounce your assertion.

"'Glory to you, Jesus Christ, for you reign today and for ever'. With this song repeated thousands of times, we have contemplated Christ this year as he is presented in the Book of Revelation: 'the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end' (Rev 22:13). And contemplating Christ, we have also adored the Father and the Spirit, the one and undivided Trinity, the ineffable mystery in which everything has its origin and its fulfilment." (Novo Millennio Ineunte 5)

 

[The Galatian]

Since God says that faith and works are both required, that should be enough for a Christian.

 

[AngelforChrist]

Originally posted by The Galatian:
Since God says that faith and works are both required, that should be enough for a Christian.

Where did God say that , scripture and verse please . Christ said this : John 6:28 :Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by mioque:
"As I recall Pope John Paul was not in favor of the liberating of the Iraqi people in our most recent war. Peace at any cost and in the name of God."

Ray
The vast majority of Christians in Iraq are Catholics, under Saddam they suffered little compared to what Christians have to endure in most Middle-eastern countries. Their position is taking a turn for the worse since the Iraqi's got liberated. And now you know the reason behind the pope's opposition in this matter.

Sadam's slaughter and torture of 100's of 1000's of Iraqi people is hardly the "price" we want to pay for "a good time in bagdad" for Christian churches. Perish the thought that the Iragi people should EVER view the Christian church as taking that position.

And guess what - Christian churches under coallition control still do well.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by mioque:
For completeness sake I would like to mention that the Dutch city of Groesbeek is build on 7 hills. and I know of at least one other dutch city that shares this distinction.

But it was not "known" by that name during the NT period of the Roman empire. So the fact - while interesting - digresses from the substantive point of the context of the Roman empire's view and the NT saints views of prominent cities.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[mioque]

"But it was not "known" by that name during the NT period of the Roman empire. So the fact - while interesting - digresses from the substantive point of the context of the Roman empire's view and the NT saints views of prominent cities."
Absolutely right, it was known as Novio Magum in those days. The place has been a city since the first century B.C.

 

[mioque]

Bob
I never claimed to agree with the pope on Saddam, I only pointed out his motivation. Not a noble motivation, but one that isn't sinister like Ray implied.
And yes Christian churches are running into problems under coalition government.

 

[mioque]

Massdak
In my first reply to this thread I claimed you wouldn't notice if a pope did make a change for the better. Time to show some evidence.

"his <Peter's>conduct was very different then the catholic popes"
Those popes are individuals, John paul II's conduct for example comes a lot closer to Peter's behaviour than that displayed by the late Julius II.

"they do not even look like servants but they look like important men like a king or prince."
Paulus VI moved away from this image, giving up the papal crown and most of the other 'pomp and circumstance' of the papacy.

"they do not abide in Scripture and the gospel is hardly ever mentioned much less them hardly mentioning the Lord Jesus."
Carson Weber supplied proof that this is nonsense, having read a number of papal encyclicals written in the last couple of centuries myself, I'd like to add that the number of Bible citations in them has been going up steadily since 1870.


"do a search and see what they focus the most on. is it morals, mary, sacraments political appeal to country's?"
Picking 3 popes at random. Johannes Paulus II, Pius X and Hadrianus VI.
Johannes Paulus II
1.morals
2.Mary
3.political appeal to country's
4.sacraments
Pius X
1.sacraments
2.morals
3.Mary
4.political appeal to country's
Hadrianus VI
1.morals
2.political appeal to country's
3.Mary
4.sacraments
Of the 4 subjects you mention, morality comes in as number 1 with the popes mentioned, Mary is 2 and sacraments and political appeals bring up the rear.
Also notice how each pope differs individually.

"it is sad but the catholic pope gives no true hope."
Giving no true hope is a criticism better applied to orthodox Calvinism.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi AngelforChrist,

Faith works.

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by mioque:
Massdak
In my first reply to this thread I claimed you wouldn't notice if a pope did make a change for the better. Time to show some evidence.

"his <Peter's>conduct was very different then the catholic popes"
Those popes are individuals, John paul II's conduct for example comes a lot closer to Peter's behaviour than that displayed by the late Julius II.

"they do not even look like servants but they look like important men like a king or prince."
Paulus VI moved away from this image, giving up the papal crown and most of the other 'pomp and circumstance' of the papacy.

"they do not abide in Scripture and the gospel is hardly ever mentioned much less them hardly mentioning the Lord Jesus."
Carson Weber supplied proof that this is nonsense, having read a number of papal encyclicals written in the last couple of centuries myself, I'd like to add that the number of Bible citations in them has been going up steadily since 1870.


"do a search and see what they focus the most on. is it morals, mary, sacraments political appeal to country's?"
Picking 3 popes at random. Johannes Paulus II, Pius X and Hadrianus VI.
Johannes Paulus II
1.morals
2.Mary
3.political appeal to country's
4.sacraments
Pius X
1.sacraments
2.morals
3.Mary
4.political appeal to country's
Hadrianus VI
1.morals
2.political appeal to country's
3.Mary
4.sacraments
Of the 4 subjects you mention, morality comes in as number 1 with the popes mentioned, Mary is 2 and sacraments and political appeals bring up the rear.
Also notice how each pope differs individually.

"it is sad but the catholic pope gives no true hope."
Giving no true hope is a criticism better applied to orthodox Calvinism.

your list is absent of the gospel of Jesus Christ
i rest my case

 

[mioque]

You didn't ask for gospel Massdak.
You asked..
"do a search and see what they focus the most on. is it morals, mary, sacraments political appeal to country's?"
So morals, Mary, sacraments political appeal to country's it was.
If you wanted the Gospel included in the list of subjects you should have asked for it.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Mioque,

You said, 'The vast majority of Christians in Iraq are Catholics . . . '

Ray is saying, 'Without question you are right. If the pope had a hand in telling former President Kennedy not to use 'air power' in the early sixties, he probably thought that he was protecting his clientelle. If what the media is saying is the truth, Catholics were not allowed to practice their faith after we withdrew our 'Air Force' coverage. Many years followed where Christians were and still are being suppressed. Maybe liberating Cuba should have been allowed to happen for their benefit.

Hey, we give 'favored nation trade status' to China who wilfully persecute Christians and yet we don't open our doors to the Cubans and they to our nation. It seems like we should be allowing more free access to their country so they can see the value of American democracy. To my knowledge, the Cubans are not allowed to easily frequent our nation on a vacation basis.

 

[AngelforChrist]

The majority means nothing : Matthew 15: 13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber,

Catholicism makes you work for your Christianization.

Protestantism asks the Christian to trust in the Lord. [John 3:16] Carson, start trusting in Jesus, and not the church, and you will find inner peace and rest as promised in Hebrews 4:9-10.

'There remaineth a rest to the people of God. For he who is entered into His rest, has ceased from his own works, as God did from His.'

By the way, do you have any stored up merits, brother Weber? I don't need any because Christ is my merit and only hope of being with Him in Heaven. The Apostle Paul and Luther said, 'The just shall live by faith,' and Romans 5:1 says, 'Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.'

 

[Ray Berrian]

Saving faith does not have to work; it rests! [Hebrews 4:10]

'For he who is entered into His rest, he has ceased from his own works, as God did from His.'

One would have thought those wise prelates, the Cardinals, in the Vatican should have figured out, by now, what God speaking through the Apostle Paul meant when Christ said, ' . . . not of yourselves . . . . and not of works . . . ' [Ephesians 2:8-9] After all those esteemed popes have studied the Word since that elevated first pope, St. Peter the Apostle. {tongue in cheek} How is it that we have found the truth and they seemed to have missed it?

 

[AngelforChrist]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship,created in Christ Jesus forgood works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Notice the above word FOR not BY , our works are filthy rags before God . The only works worthy of God are those that GOD already prepared , we need only walk in what He ALREADY did - nothing by our own merit means anything . Not also it says workmanship , we are not His untill we have been born again , so no , works doesnt = salvation in any form at all , it cannot be earned .

Christ saved us , keeps us saved and even prepared the works for us HIMSELF , all we do it abide in the vine who provides EVERYTHING we need to grow .

 

[mioque]

Evidence for carson's position!
Matthew 15: 13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Sounds like hard work to me
Thank you AngelforChrist for pointing that out.