Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree.
I don't see them as "interpretations".
I see them as summaries of things that the Bible teaches about salvation.
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If you are a Five point Calvinist.
- Thread starter 37818
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I see them as summaries of things that the Bible teaches about salvation.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
One of the consequences that I see of not believing the Christ died for only His sheep, is that professing Christians end up with a view that "God loves everyone and sent His Son to die for everyone"...a disjointed view that leaves out the contents of the Psalms, the Proverbs, Revelation and many other passages ( which show that the Lord is selective in whom He loves and whom He saves ), which then combines with salvation being a "potential" act of God's grace through Jesus Christ towards all men, that is not completed until the person who hears the word of God believes on Christ...
Making the Lord's grace dependent upon what the person does.
In other words, to me it all hooks together:
A particular redemption is focused on God's elect from the foundation of the world, a remnant out of every tongue, tribe and nation, and exists as a completed act for a definite group of people whom the Lord has set His affections on, while reserving the rest for righteous judgment. The people for whom Christ died have been His sheep from the foundation of the world, and the terms of the agreement were made with God's Son, who were given those people to redeem by a loving Father who always had them firmly in mind. Their decision had nothing to do with why they are saved.
A general atonement is focused on God's "elect" who become that way by performing an act...their belief of the Gospel, and exists as an uncompleted act for an indefinite number of people whom the Lord has extended the terms of an offer...who by accepting that offer, are then placed within the body of Christ by reason of that belief. Per the terms of the agreement, the person goes from being a goat to being a sheep, and from being dead to being alive in Christ based on their decision...which had everything to do with why they were saved.
The consequences are complex, but essentially come down to these:
Per a "limited" atonement, Christ actually redeemed everyone He was sent to redeem...His atonement for them resulted in their sins being blotted out in God's eyes.
Per a general atonement, Christ didn't actually redeem anyone unless after-the-fact... and most of the ones that He gave Himself for will end up in the Lake of Fire, sins and all, despite His suffering for them on the cross. None of their sins were blotted out, until they believed.
Incidentally, if you can find Scripture that tells us, in no uncertain terms, that Christ's blood is only "applied" at point of belief, I'd be interested in seeing that.
From my studies, I can tell you that without a doubt, there are none...
But I know of several that tell us what was accomplished on the cross, and for whom it was accomplished for.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I see the exact same thing in a particular redemption, in that those who have believed on Christ can take actual and meaningful comfort and confidence in their Saviour's work for them, knowing that His sure redemption always had them, individually, in mind.
Stated another way,
There can be no doubt that, provided one has believed the words of God and has placed their trust in Christ for the remission of their sins, He died for them.
I disagree, and see that the passage in your quote above is aimed squarely at believers... Christ's sheep and the ones who were foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified per Romans 8:28-30, were given to Him by His Father per John 6:37-39, John 6:64-65, and John 17:2, and were chosen in Christ per Ephesians 1:4-5 from the foundation of the world.
In other words, His elect, the "our" that Paul is addressing in 1 Corinthians 1:2...
Those that have believed on Christ, and no others.
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I haven't read The Marrow of Modern Divinity but I have studied Sinclair Ferguson on this subject. Isn't it true that the problem that started the Marrow controversy was that some of the Scottish Calvinists became so worried about possibly preaching to or encouraging non-elect people that they started to look for signs of repentance in people before they would allow them to come to Christ at all. The Marrow men, as they came to be called, believed that the only qualification needed to come to Christ was a desire to. They also believed that the offer of the gospel was true and actual. In other words anyone who you came across, if they heard your message and came to Christ would be saved. The Marrow controversy I think was more a problem of hyper-Calvinism than 4 point Calvinism. If you have a copy of the Marrow, I'd like to know what you think.
37818
Well-Known Member
There remains unchanged 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, ". . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . ."
37818
Well-Known Member
Reading into the text meaning you want it to mean. Romans 5:8 says, ". . . while while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ."
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree.
It remains unchanged that Paul is speaking to believers ( God's elect ), not all men in these passages...and that Christ died for their sins according to the Scriptures.
For who are the letters to the Corinthians addressed to?
Unbelievers?
No, my friend. To those who have believed, not to those who have not.
I see that all that is contained in these verses ( such as the one above ) is written to those who have believed on Christ, not to those who do not or have not.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
No, what I'm actually doing reading it out of the text.
See below:
Precisely.
Reading it out of the text ( please follow along carefully ):
" Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: <----- Who are the "we"? Those that are justified by faith, are they not?
2 by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. <---- Who has access by faith into this grace wherein "we" stand? See verse 1.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; <--- Who "glories" in tribulations? See verse 1.
4 and patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. <--- Whose hearts is the love of God shed abroad in, and who is the Holy Ghost given to? All the way up in verse 1...those that are justified by faith, correct?
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. <--- When who was without strength? Who are the ungodly here?
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. <---- Who did God commend His love toward? While who were yet sinners, Christ died for who? See verse 1.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. <---- Who is justified by His blood and who shall be saved from wrath through Him, here? Again, see verse 1.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. <--- Who were His enemies, and who were reconciled to God by the death of His Son? See verse 1.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." ( Romans 5:1-11 ). <----- Who has now received the atonement? As before, please see verse 1. Those who are justified by faith, is it not?
8) While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us....believers.
The entire letter is addressed to believers, not unbelievers, isn't it?
" to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints:" ( Romans 1:7 ).
God's elect, just as Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 10, and Romans 11 tell us.
I'm not sure how you keep missing it, my friend.
Perhaps if you read it again, and place verse 8 back into the text and start from the top.
All I have done is to read the entire thing, and follow the pronouns and ask, "...who is being spoken to and about?"
Those who hate God and refuse to believe...or those who have already believed?
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
The above is how I discovered that Christ died for me, and how I discovered who Christ died for...
By reading and believing the words on the page, and realizing that they are actually addressed to those who read and believe it ( those who have believed on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins ).
That said, I'll make this my final reply to you in this thread.
May God bless you sir.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Re: 1 Corinthians 15:3, Romans 5:8. The terms "our," "we" and "us" is not in dispute that those terms apply to the believers. As in the Corinthian church, and the Roman church. What is in dispute is the disagreement that "our," "we" and "us" can applied to the whole human race. The fact is thoes terms are being applied to the believers before they believed. What is the evidence that disallows those terms from being applied to all mankind?No, what I'm actually doing reading it out of the text.
See below:
Precisely.
Reading it out of the text ( please follow along carefully ):
" Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: <----- Who are the "we"? Those that are justified by faith, are they not?
2 by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. <---- Who has access by faith into this grace wherein "we" stand? See verse 1.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; <--- Who "glories" in tribulations? See verse 1.
4 and patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. <--- Whose hearts is the love of God shed abroad in, and who is the Holy Ghost given to? All the way up in verse 1...those that are justified by faith, correct?
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. <--- When who was without strength? Who are the ungodly here?
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. <---- Who did God commend His love toward? While who were yet sinners, Christ died for who? See verse 1.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. <---- Who is justified by His blood and who shall be saved from wrath through Him, here? Again, see verse 1.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. <--- Who were His enemies, and who were reconciled to God by the death of His Son? See verse 1.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." ( Romans 5:1-11 ). <----- Who has now received the atonement? As before, please see verse 1. Those who are justified by faith, is it not?
8) While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us....believers.
The entire letter is addressed to believers, not unbelievers, isn't it?
" to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints:" ( Romans 1:7 ).
God's elect, just as Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 10, and Romans 11 tell us.
I'm not sure how you keep missing it, my friend.
Perhaps if you read it again, and place verse 8 back into the text and start from the top.
All I have done is to read the entire thing, and follow the pronouns and ask, "...who is being spoken to and about?"
Those who hate God and refuse to believe...or those who have already believed?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
My apologies for violating my intentions in my last post,
but I felt the need to make one more set of replies so you know that I'm not just "cherry-picking the verses", as some say.
The evidence that I see that disallows those terms as being applied to all of mankind, are as follows ( and includes much more than these ):
1) 2 Corinthians 5:11-21.
If God was in Christ reconciling "the world" to Himself, then per the language of the passage, if "world" means every man, woman and child that ever lived,
then that reconciliation has been made for them; It is not phrased in such a way as to describe a potential...
If you'll read it carefully, it is describing a completed act ( both in the past and present tenses ) with purpose that involves a certain group...
Reconciliation has been made and God is not ( not "will not be" ) imputing their trespasses to those that have been reconciled to Him.
Therefore, if everyone is reconciled to Him, then they are no longer enemies of His, but friends of His;
Based on that reconciliation, no one will ever suffer His wrath and hatred in the Lake of Fire for their sins...if "world" means everyone.
2) 1 John 2:1-12. Same as above. If "world" in 1 John 2:2 means everyone, then His wrath has been "propitiated" or appeased for everyone.
It is describing a "done deal", not a "potential".
The Lord Jesus is the propitiation for our sins...the appeasement for them.
He actually appeased God with His sacrifice on the cross.
Because of that, if "world" there means everyone, then no one will ever suffer punishment for sins, because God's wrath was appeased by the Lord Jesus.
3) Romans 5:1-21. Same as above. If "all men" in verse 18 means, literally ( instead of contextually ), all men, then they are justified per the language of the passage.
It is not describing a potential, but a completed act that applies to a group.
As before, the ramifications of one phrase ( "all men" ) make the Lake of Fire either a sure thing for those who hate God and refuse to believe Him and His words,
or they completely rule out any punishment for those who love sin and refuse to repent of it.
4) Hebrews 2:9-18. Same as above, but even more so because I see that the "every man" is in verse 9 is more fully described in the following verses:
They are the "many sons" in verse 10,
the "they who are sanctified" and "brethren" in verse 11,
the "my brethren" and "the church" in verse 13,
"the children" in verse 14,
the "them who through fear of death were subject" in verse 15,
the "brethren" and "the people" in verse 17,
and the "them that are tempted" in verse 18.
To me, this completely rules out Hebrews 2:9 as speaking, in any way, to each and every human being that has ever lived,
because the context of the "every man" is clearly developed further on in the passage.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
As you undoubtedly know, biblical doctrines are derived from what the Scriptures teach, in their entirety, on any given subject.
They not only describe concrete truths, they also have ramifications, my friend.
As I see it, the ramifications of a general atonement involve a "what if" that the Bible's language simply does not support.
The atonement is and was a "done deal",
and it was performed to accomplish forgiveness of sins for a people who would sing the praises of His grace and mercy towards Him.
It was never performed for a people who would not.
That stated, I find that I must ( from here on out ) refrain from answering you further on this subject, since it seems that we are in such profound disagreement;
It appears that no matter how hard I try, I simply cannot convey my own understanding of it to you...
Which is also not my right to do, given that every believer has both the privilege and the duty to seek out these answers for themselves in God's word.
I wish you well, and bid you a good afternoon.
They not only describe concrete truths, they also have ramifications, my friend.
As I see it, the ramifications of a general atonement involve a "what if" that the Bible's language simply does not support.
The atonement is and was a "done deal",
and it was performed to accomplish forgiveness of sins for a people who would sing the praises of His grace and mercy towards Him.
It was never performed for a people who would not.
That stated, I find that I must ( from here on out ) refrain from answering you further on this subject, since it seems that we are in such profound disagreement;
It appears that no matter how hard I try, I simply cannot convey my own understanding of it to you...
Which is also not my right to do, given that every believer has both the privilege and the duty to seek out these answers for themselves in God's word.
I wish you well, and bid you a good afternoon.
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37818
Well-Known Member
There are other factors which influence this understanding.
Two I have in mind. One in the context, 2 Corinthians 5:14, ". . . For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: . . ."
The other is that this belief is reason all names start out in the book of life. 1 John 2:2, 1 John 5:4-5, Revelation 3:5. 2 Peter 2:1 with Jude 1:4 along with Romans 14:9 ownership of our Lord. Romans 14:11. It is not merely based on one isolated reference. There are others like 1 Timothy 2:6. And this is not disallowing the particular aspect of redemption, John 10:27-28.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
DaveG. I'm just asking here but is this a common tenet of Calvinism? I'll have to go back and look but I thought R.C.Sproul taught that an elect person before they are saved is lost. Or are you just saying that the word "applied" isn't the way to put it?
By the way, I find your exchanges with 37818 very informative, on both sides.
I don’t have the book, only Ferguson’s commentaries.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Dunno, I'm not a "Calvinist"...
people label me as one, but since I was never taught it traditionally or through theological books, all I can do is express how I understand what the Bible is teaching.
He may have, but I think he was in error if he did.
For example:
" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
In the above I see two groups mentioned...
1) "Them that perish"
2) "Us which are saved" ( not "will be" saved ).
It's the very same as Romans 9, which tells us that there are two groups that God has created...
" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:22-24 ).
The vessels of mercy were afore ( before ) prepared unto glory, which I understand to mean that He prepared them for eternal life and salvation before-hand.
His decision to make them vessels of mercy occurred before, which fits Ephesians 1:4-5....before the foundation of the world.
So, the Lord always had a people in mind from the very first, and His Son was foreordained to give Himself for them, when?
From ( at that point ) the foundation of the world, just as 1 Peter 1:18-20 tells us Christ was foreordained.
He decided to save them at that point, and His precious children were never in any danger of the Lake of Fire.
Another example:
" All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." ( John 6:37 ).
Here I clearly see that it is the Father who first gives someone to Christ ( when did the giving take place? See Ephesians 1:4 ), and they then come to believe on Him at some point when they are "called" by the Spirit and through His words.