If you are not a “Calvinist”….

[canadyjd]

What makes you different that you were one of the Calvinistically elect?
Why did God choose you and not another?
If anything smacks of elitism, it's that doctrine.

I don’t want to make this personal, but I’ll answer generally.

God choses people for salvation according to His good will and purpose, according to scripture. Beyond that, scripture does not say “why” God choses as He does, but the difference, as I have already stated, is that God has chosen the person for salvation and has made that salvation certain by His work and power.

I don’t believe the elect are “better” in any way than those not chosen by God.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I understand what you are saying. You do not need to explain….

Jesus is telling the unbelievers that they do not understand because they are not in the flock. You are assuming Jesus speaks of a saving call. Perhaps he is, but the passage itself does not give that picture……

You are changing what Jesus said. Jesus did not say they didn’t “understand” what He was saying because they weren’t His sheep. He said they didn’t “believe” what He was saying because they weren’t of His sheep.

They clearly understood what He was saying because they decided to kill Him because He was claiming He is equal to God.

I won’t “explain” if you don’t misrepresent what I’m saying.

peace to you

 

[Yeshua1]

I don’t want to make this personal, but I’ll answer generally.

God choses people for salvation according to His good will and purpose, according to scripture. Beyond that, scripture does not say “why” God choses as He does, but the difference, as I have already stated, is that God has chosen the person for salvation and has made that salvation certain by His work and power.

I don’t believe the elect are “better” in any way than those not chosen by God.

peace to you

The saved in heaven are just as "bad" as all in hell!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are changing what Jesus said. Jesus did not say they didn’t “understand” what He was saying because they weren’t His sheep. He said they didn’t “believe” what He was saying because they weren’t of His sheep.

They clearly understood what He was saying because they decided to kill Him because He was claiming He is equal to God.

I won’t “explain” if you don’t misrepresent what I’m saying.

peace to you

All heard what Jesus spoke, but only those who were his own understood it!

 

[JonC]

You are changing what Jesus said. Jesus did not say they didn’t “understand” what He was saying because they weren’t His sheep. He said they didn’t “believe” what He was saying because they weren’t of His sheep.

They clearly understood what He was saying because they decided to kill Him because He was claiming He is equal to God.

I won’t “explain” if you don’t misrepresent what I’m saying.

peace to you

Your argument is those challenging Jesus, those who heard what he was preaching but denied he was preaching the truth challenged him not because they did not understand spiritual things but because they did not actually hear what he was saying?

I'm not misrepresenting what you claim but questioning your logic.

 

[canadyjd]

I appreciate the candid comments and civil debate. I understand all the views are sincerely held and folks believe they are supported by scripture.

Let’s give a.brief summary of the views of what makes the difference between those that believe and those that don’t.

1. Based on John 3:19-21. Those that accept the gospel “do what is true… come to the light.” Those that reject “love darkness”.

2. The difference is not that they “can’t” but they “won’t”

3. Those that believe are willing to give up their lifestyles. Those that reject are not willing to give up their lifestyles.

4. Those that accept have “Godly grief”. Those that reject have “worldly grief”.

5. We shouldn’t ask the question because it’s God’s business and scripture doesn’t give the answer.

6. The difference is choice. The people that believe want to be saved and those that reject don’t want to be saved.

7. Those that reject love their sin more than they love Jesus.

8. Those that are saved believed the Bible. Those that rejected don’t believe the Bible.

9. The gospel is only one way people get saved. People can be saved without hearing the name of Jesus Christ

10. God gives us space to believe.

Edit to add JonC’s points:

11. The saved are predestined to salvation and the unsaved to condemnation…. For God’s glory.

12. Those that believe are drawn by the Father and given to the Son.

For the “Calvinists” that responded the difference is…

1. God “wrought” their works

2. God chose them for salvation

3. God Holy Spirit conviction makes the difference

The focus of the Calvinists is on God’s work.

The non Calvinists, generally, put the focus on individual choice or willingness to give up sinful or worldly things.

The one person that claimed people can be saved without the gospel or hearing the name of Jesus is teaching heresy, in my opinion.

Again, thanks to all for the candid, sincere opinions and civil debate, especially when we disagree on scripture and doctrine.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

The saved in heaven are just as "bad" as all in hell!

The only difference is the righteousness of Jesus covers that sin, making them acceptable in the Father’s sight.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

I appreciate the candid comments and civil debate. I understand all the views are sincerely held and folks believe they are supported by scripture.

Let’s give a.brief summary of the views of what makes the difference between those that believe and those that don’t.

1. Based on John 3:19-21. Those that accept the gospel “do what is true… come to the light.” Those that reject “love darkness”.

2. The difference is not that they “can’t” but they “won’t”

3. Those that believe are willing to give up their lifestyles. Those that reject are not willing to give up their lifestyles.

4. Those that accept have “Godly grief”. Those that reject have “worldly grief”.

5. We shouldn’t ask the question because it’s God’s business and scripture doesn’t give the answer.

6. The difference is choice. The people that believe want to be saved and those that reject don’t want to be saved.

7. Those that reject love their sin more than they love Jesus.

8. Those that are saved believed the Bible. Those that rejected don’t believe the Bible.

9. The gospel is only one way people get saved. People can be saved without hearing the name of Jesus Christ

10. God gives us space to believe.

For the “Calvinists” that responded the difference is…

1. God “wrought” their works

2. God chose them for salvation

3. God Holy Spirit conviction makes the difference

The focus of the Calvinists is on God’s work.

The non Calvinists, generally, put the focus on individual choice or willingness to give up sinful or worldly things.

The one person that claimed people can be saved without the gospel or hearing the name of Jesus is teaching heresy, in my opinion.

Again, thanks to all for the candid, sincere opinions and civil debate, especially when we disagree on scripture and doctrine.

peace to you

I need to add to this list (and step back from our disagreement on one particular passage).

You are leaving out a few points from this non-Calvinist.

First, the saved are predestined to be saved but those who are never saved are predestined to condemnation. The point is not salvation but God's glory. (Romans 9:22)

Second, those who come to believe are drawn by the Father (John 6:44) and given to the Son (John 6:39).

 

[Yeshua1]

The only difference is the righteousness of Jesus covers that sin, making them acceptable in the Father’s sight.

peace to you

Agreed, as without those robes of his righteousness, all have their own shoddy clothes!

 

[canadyjd]

Your argument is those challenging Jesus, those who heard what he was preaching but denied he was preaching the truth challenged him not because they did not understand spiritual things but because they did not actually hear what he was saying?

I'm not misrepresenting what you claim but questioning your logic.

They understood what He was saying as evidenced by their attempt to kill Him because He claimed to be equal with God.

Jesus said they didn’t believe because they are not of His sheep, NOT, as you claimed, they weren’t His sheep because they didn’t understand.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I need to add to this list (and step back from our disagreement on one particular passage).

You are leaving out a few points from this non-Calvinist.

First, the saved are predestined to be saved but those who are never saved are predestined to condemnation. The point is not salvation but God's glory. (Romans 9:22)

Second, those who come to believe are drawn by the Father (John 6:44) and given to the Son (John 6:39).

Fair enough. Consider it added.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

They understood what He was saying as evidenced by their attempt to kill Him because He claimed to be equal with God.

Jesus said they didn’t believe because they are not of His sheep, NOT, as you claimed, they weren’t His sheep because they didn’t understand.

peace to you

Then why, do you think, did they ask Jesus if he was claiming to be the Messiah? Also, you said they did not hear - not that they heard and understood but did not believe.

 

[George Antonios]

scripture does not say “why” God choses

Imagine basically saying that believing on Jesus Christ is NOT the reason a man is chosen unto salvation.

Imagine saying that 31,102 verses, 66 books, including lengthy genealogies and apparently insignificant details, somehow do not say why a man is chosen.

Just incredible.

Obviously, when we deny the reason that is given for election (i.e. faith in Christ) then we are left with no reason at all. Hence the necessary punt to mystery.

And this stuff passes for theology in many seminaries in the West.

 

[AustinC]

Imagine basically saying that believing on Jesus Christ is NOT the reason a man is chosen unto salvation.

Imagine saying that 31,102 verses, 66 books, including lengthy genealogies and apparently insignificant details, somehow do not say why a man is chosen.

Just incredible.

Obviously, when we deny the reason that is given for election (i.e. faith in Christ) then we are left with no reason at all. Hence the necessary punt to mystery.

And this stuff passes for theology in many seminaries in the West.

Imagine the law not being the means of salvation. Imagine the Bible telling you that the law exposes sin and provokes sin so that you continually fail in the attempt to be saved by legal means. Imagine a vast number of quotes from the OT all pointing to the grace of God saving us since the law could not.
Obviously when we deny God's unmerited election we are left with merited election This stuff passes for theology in many seminaries throughout the world. It is precisely this reason why we have so many unskilled pastors who fail to grasp the Sovereignty of God.

 

[George Antonios]

Imagine the law not being the means of salvation. Imagine the Bible telling you that the law exposes sin and provokes sin so that you continually fail in the attempt to be saved by legal means. Imagine a vast number of quotes from the OT all pointing to the grace of God saving us since the law could not.

Imagine that we agree on that. You're arguing alone. This is worse than straw man; it's just straw.

We are saying that faith in Christ is the basis of election, not the works of the law.

Be honest with the other's position.

 

[canadyjd]

Then why, do you think, did they ask Jesus if he was claiming to be the Messiah? Also, you said they did not hear - not that they heard and understood but did not believe.

Where did I say they “did not hear”?

peace to you

 

[MB]

Imagine the law not being the means of salvation. Imagine the Bible telling you that the law exposes sin and provokes sin so that you continually fail in the attempt to be saved by legal means. Imagine a vast number of quotes from the OT all pointing to the grace of God saving us since the law could not.
Obviously when we deny God's unmerited election we are left with merited election This stuff passes for theology in many seminaries throughout the world. It is precisely this reason why we have so many unskilled pastors who fail to grasp the Sovereignty of God.

The word Sovereign does not appear in any MSS. It says God is all powerful The word sovereign was added to newer versions. You not only call Him Sovereign you also Interpret it as meaning something else other than what it really means. This nation is sovereign but it doesn't predetermine what we think. Neither does God. There is no absolute rule of everything. This is why the word is not appropriate for a description of God. The Bible calls Him all powerful..
MB.

 

[AustinC]

Imagine that we agree on that. You're arguing alone. This is worse than straw man; it's just straw.

We are saying that faith in Christ is the basis of election, not the works of the law.

Be honest with the other's position.

No, no we are not.
Faith is not the basis of election.
Election is the basis of faith being given as a gift to the adopted child of God.
You turn faith into the cause which moves God to elect someone. You make faith an idol that is outside of God, but inert within humans.
God forbid any believer teach what you have declared.

 

[AustinC]

The word Sovereign does not appear in any MSS. It says God is all powerful The word sovereign was added to newer versions. You not only call Him Sovereign you also Interpret it as meaning something else other than what it really means. This nation is sovereign but it doesn't predetermine what we think. Neither does God. There is no absolute rule of everything. This is why the word is not appropriate for a description of God. The Bible calls Him all powerful..
MB.

MB, this is your crutch, yet many translators do in fact translate Lord as Sovereign Lord, because the Hebrew expresses Sovereignty in its use.
You nitpick here, because God being Supreme and Sovereign means you are subject under His authority at all times.

 

[canadyjd]

Imagine basically saying that believing on Jesus Christ is NOT the reason a man is chosen unto salvation.

Imagine saying that 31,102 verses, 66 books, including lengthy genealogies and apparently insignificant details, somehow do not say why a man is chosen.

Just incredible.

Obviously, when we deny the reason that is given for election (i.e. faith in Christ) then we are left with no reason at all. Hence the necessary punt to mystery.

And this stuff passes for theology in many seminaries in the West.

I understand your position. You believe God knows who will believe the gospel and makes them “elect” based on that knowledge.

My position is that God choses (elects) people to salvation before the foundation of the world and actively works in those people’s lives to bring them to salvation.

My view has mankind responding to what God does. Your view has God responding to what mankind does.

Salvation occurs at a point in time in response to faith. However, I do not believe your position that election occurs after someone believes is supported by scripture.

peace to you