If you are not a “Calvinist”….

[JonC]

No, I quoted you and you left out that Jesus calls them by name. Look at your post. You left that part out.

peace to you

I didn't leave anything out. I just copied and pasted the passage.

But that changes nothing.

Christ calls his sheep by name. They believe him. They follow Him. They trust him.

You claim that before you were saved you were his sheep (that you were born hearing his voice and following him). I simply disagree. You were born in sin and needed salvation just like the rest of the world. There was a time when the term "sheep" (following the Shepherd) did not apply to you.

 

[canadyjd]

Please take a moment to re-read my post.

You are affirming what I said you believed.

I said there was a time you did not believe.

Per your explanation, however, that the sheep DO believe, you were at one time not a sheep (which is actually true per that passage).

Once again, the sheep belonged to Jesus prior to being called by name and following Him. They believe because they are already chosen sheep belonging to Christ.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Once again, the sheep belonged to Jesus prior to being called by name and following Him. They believe because they are already chosen sheep belonging to Christ.

peace to you

You do not understand that passage, probably because you are taking it out of context.

The elect were chosen from the foundation of the earth (I don't have a problem with election). My issue is not really what you believe but that you miss the meaning of passages by reading your beliefs into it.

You would have done better to have referenced other passages that actually deal with election.

 

[Revmitchell]

John 17:1 begins with the prayer by acknowledging His authority over every person and then for all the Father has given to Jesus. At a minimum, Jesus alternates between praying for His disciples and praying for all the Father gives to Him.

It is not limited solely to His disciples.

peace to you

I didn’t say all of it was limited to His disciples. I showed you there are three parts. He prays to the Father about their relationship v. 1-5

He prays about the disciples v.6-19

He prays about those who will believe as a result of their witness v. 20-26


It’s within that section that He prays for the disciples that He mentions those the Father gave Him.

We are not included in that anymore than we are in John 6.

 

[Jesus Saves!]

I believe the Lord gives us a space to repent and believe just as he did Jezebel.
Revelation 2:20-21 KJVS
[20] Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. [21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

The Lord could be drawing both of you and you move to him and the other doesn’t. The Holy Ghost speaks to our hearts when we hear the preached Gospel. God also may not be speaking or drawing the one beside the other. Many times I heard his voice but wouldn’t turn to him with all my heart. The evening I was born again, I was singing with the church beside the piano and the Hoky Spirit began to draw me. I said to myself, or the enemy was telling me that it wasn’t time yet the preacher hadn’t preached yet and it wasn’t altar time. But I had heard the gospel before several times. I felt the drawing power get lighter and lighter, then a fear came over me that I may never get that call again. So, I put down the song book and made a few steps to the altar and gave it all to Jesus. In an instant, I felt the burden of sin lifted from me. Other times I had prayed and even told I was saved, but I had never truly given myself to him and the Holy Spirit let me know it that evening. God deals with us in his time. He gets the glory when we overcome self and Satan and obey Him.

John 6:44 KJVS
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Revelation 3:20 KJVS
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Revelation 22:17 KJVS
[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[canadyjd]

….

You claim that before you were saved you were his sheep (that you were born hearing his voice and following him). I simply disagree. You were born in sin and needed salvation just like the rest of the world. There was a time when the term "sheep" (following the Shepherd) did not apply to you.

This post post is a perfect example of misrepresenting what someone says.

I believe the “sheep” belong to Jesus before they are saved and I have explained why. I have acknowledged we disagree.

You claim that I believe I “born hearing His voice and following Him.” I didn’t say that and I don’t believe it.

You then state that I was born in sin and needed salvation as if I had claimed otherwise, based in your false assertion that I believed I was born hearing His voice and following Him.

I am no expert in debating, but I think that is called a straw man argument. I prefer simple language. What you claim I believe is a false and a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said.

peace to you

 

[George Antonios]

I don’t believe faith is a work.

Really? Let's test that claim.

The difference between me and "the other guy" is that, of my own free will, I believed the gospel, whereas the other, of his own free will, did not.

Is the difference between me and him a work?

 

[canadyjd]

I didn’t say all of it was limited to His disciples. I showed you there are three parts. He prays to the Father about their relationship v. 1-5

He prays about the disciples v.6-19

He prays about those who will believe as a result of their witness v. 20-26


It’s within that section that He prays for the disciples that He mentions those the Father gave Him.

We are not included in that anymore than we are in John 6.

He mentions that He has power over “all flesh” and gives “eternal life to all thou (the Father) has given Me” in the very first verse of John 17. It is not limited to the disciples.

Again, the phrase “all thou has given Me” is a repeating theme in John that refers to those who will be saved. It refers back to John 1 that the children of God are born by the will of God and John 3 where it says those are “born again” of the Spirit that blows where He wills and Jesus saying no one comes to the Father unless he is drawn and His sheep hear His voice, He calls them by name they follow Him and He gives them eternal life and they are in the Fathers hands snd no one can take them out and on and on and on throughout John’s gospel… verse after verse demonstrating the active power of God in bringing “those He has given” to Jesus to salvation and eternal life.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

This post post is a perfect example of misrepresenting what someone says.

I believe the “sheep” belong to Jesus before they are saved and I have explained why. I have acknowledged we disagree.

You claim that I believe I “born hearing His voice and following Him.” I didn’t say that and I don’t believe it.

You then state that I was born in sin and needed salvation as if I had claimed otherwise, based in your false assertion that I believed I was born hearing His voice and following Him.

I am no expert in debating, but I think that is called a straw man argument. I prefer simple language. What you claim I believe is a false and a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said.

peace to you

But you said the sheep are the ones who believe in Christ, the ones who follow him.

Now you are suggesting there are sheep who do not believe and follow Christ.

This is inconsistent.

My belief is the sheep are the people who hear Christ's voice and obey, they follow Him. Theyare the ones who believe.

The ones that do not follow are not sheep.

I am pointing this out simply to emphasize the truth that Scripture does not call people Christ's sheep except that they believe and follow. Sanme with the elect.

You reason the sheep include unsaved people who will at some point be saved. But Scripture does not deal with election that way.

 

[canadyjd]

Really? Let's test that claim.

The difference between me and "the other guy" is that, of my own free will, I believed the gospel, whereas the other, of his own free will, did not.

Is the difference between me and him a work?

No. Did I pass?

I believe human beings have a human will enslaved to sin and therefore not free. But we can debate that somewhere else.

Your statement really doesn’t answer the question as to why your “free will” made the difference over the next guys “free will”.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

But you said the sheep are the ones who believe in Christ, the ones who follow him.

Now you are suggesting there are sheep who do not believe and follow Christ.
.

Again, I will try to explain as plainly as I can.

The “sheep” Jesus is referring to are chosen before the foundation of the world. They are His sheep, He knows them by name. His Father has given them to Him. He will give them eternal life and will not lose any.

Until He calls them by name, they are unsaved. Once He calls them by name, they will be saved and follow Him. They are always His sheep, before the foundation of the world.

Peace to you

 

[37818]

The ones that do not follow are not sheep.

My understanding of who are the sheep are those who will ultimately believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. So the being sheep or goats, tares or wheat are the end condtion of being saved or lost. Tares do not become wheat, goats do not become sheep. That is how I understand the use of those terms. Those terms are in God's point of view. Prior to a person being saved, we have no way of discerning what they are.

 

[George Antonios]

No. Did I pass?

I believe human beings have a human will enslaved to sin and therefore not free. But we can debate that somewhere else.

Your statement really doesn’t answer the question as to why your “free will” made the difference over the next guys “free will”.

peace to you

Your "no" and your "I believe human beings have a human will enslaved to sin and therefore not free." are contradictory, because, to solve the contradiction, you must proceed to disannul my free will faith. The only way to do that is to categorize free will faith as a work (since we're not saved by works).

Sure it answered the question. I was saved because I believed the gospel. The other was not because he did not believe the gospel.

 

[canadyjd]

… I think all people can equally choose or not choose to believe when God illuminates their minds in that moment…...

I’d like to explore this statement with you. Ok?

Do you believe all people are “illumined”

Is the gospel necessary for salvation? I believe it is.

If the gospel is necessary for salvation, then God has limited who even has the possibility of salvation to those that hear the gospel. Do you agree?

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Your "no" and your "I believe human beings have a human will enslaved to sin and therefore not free." are contradictory, because, to solve the contradiction, you must proceed to disannul my free will faith. The only way to do that is to categorize free will faith as a work (since we're not saved by works).

Sure it answered the question. I was saved because I believed the gospel. The other was not because he did not believe the gospel.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[George Antonios]

What was different about you that caused you to believe the gospel unto salvation and not the guy or lady next to you?

For “Calvinists” the answer is simple. Salvation is a work of God from start to finish.

But for those who dismiss God’s determining the salvation of people, what makes you different from those that reject the gospel?

Please, it’s a serious question.

peace to you

What makes you different that you were one of the Calvinistically elect?
Why did God choose you and not another?
If anything smacks of elitism, it's that doctrine.

 

[JonC]

Again, I will try to explain as plainly as I can.

The “sheep” Jesus is referring to are chosen before the foundation of the world. They are His sheep, He knows them by name. His Father has given them to Him. He will give them eternal life and will not lose any.

Until He calls them by name, they are unsaved. Once He calls them by name, they will be saved and follow Him. They are always His sheep, before the foundation of the world.

Peace to you

I understand what you are saying. You do not need to explain.

I am saying that what you are saying is not actually in that verse. Shepherds tend a flock. If one in that flock strays the shepherd finds it. But shepherds do not go around calling for sheep to join the flock.

Jesus is telling the unbelievers that they do not understand because they are not in the flock. You are assuming Jesus speaks of a saving call. Perhaps he is, but the passage itself does not give that picture.

The elect were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. You are correct on that point. But you are allowing one truth distort your reading of other passages.

 

[George Antonios]

I am saying that what you are saying is not actually in that verse. Shepherds tend a flock. If one in that flock strays the shepherd finds it. But shepherds do not go around calling for sheep to join the flock.

Good point.

 

[Yeshua1]

I didn't leave anything out. I just copied and pasted the passage.

But that changes nothing.

Christ calls his sheep by name. They believe him. They follow Him. They trust him.

You claim that before you were saved you were his sheep (that you were born hearing his voice and following him). I simply disagree. You were born in sin and needed salvation just like the rest of the world. There was a time when the term "sheep" (following the Shepherd) did not apply to you.

God elected him to get saved by the Cross of Christ, and as such, the Holy Spirit gave him "ears to hear"

 

[Yeshua1]

I understand what you are saying. You do not need to explain.

I am saying that what you are saying is not actually in that verse. Shepherds tend a flock. If one in that flock strays the shepherd finds it. But shepherds do not go around calling for sheep to join the flock.

Jesus is telling the unbelievers that they do not understand because they are not in the flock. You are assuming Jesus speaks of a saving call. Perhaps he is, but the passage itself does not give that picture.

The elect were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. You are correct on that point. But you are allowing one truth distort your reading of other passages.

Are those who are not elected able to hear the voice of Jesus then calling out to them?