If you are not a “Calvinist”….

[JonC]

Perhaps the answer can be better answered (or explained) by looking at different topics.

Why does one person believe covid is dangerous while the person next to him or her doesnt?

Why do some hold to a KJO view while others don't even when exposed to the sane information.

We could ask a million of similar questions.

Why did I choose to have a country ham biscuit for breakfast this morning while the guy in front of me chose a sausage biscuit?

The question itself is not relevant. We are different people. Nothing has to make us choose differently.

 

[MB]

My purpose for this thread is to hear from five point Calvinists how they came to believe Christ died for them. My difficulty is from the perspective with a general claim Christ died for everyone, no one can know Christ died for one's self if Christ did not die for all, with Romans 5:8 in mind, ". . . while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ." Mere belief does not make what is believed true. So unless Christ's death for sinners is for all sinners is all sinners one cannot presume it includes one's self.

Your right it doesn't make it true. Only what Christ said is true not what we sometimes think. Simply we cannot think our way in to heaven. Scripture must be followed correctly.
MB

 

[kyredneck]

the question. What is the difference between the person who accepts and the person who rejects?

God has 'wrought' within one and not the other:

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`Jn 3 YLT

It's 'regeneration BEFORE faith'.

 

[Silverhair]

The OP asked for non Cals to give an honest answer so I as a impartial observer have noticed all have avoided and diverted from any honest attempt to address the question without changing it.
Are you honest enough to admit you observe this same pattern?

I think most people do not want to you said, you said type of discussion. Hard to give an answer without someone getting feathers ruffled.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think most people do not want to you said, you said type of discussion. Hard to give an answer without someone getting feathers ruffled.

Correct.
Now the OP was very clear. Right away RM called it a gotcha question.
He did not answer and we know he cannot,so he tries to rework the question.
Others quote verses that do not address the question...but are good verses....you know ...like Job's 3 friends offered some solid ideas that did not apply to Job.
SH....read every response and tell me if you can agree with my neutral observation?

Also some word things so vague that technically the gave an answer,but in such a disingenuous way,that they do not take a stand,they do not intend to, they have no biblical base.
They do not post further as they cannot bear to see their false ideas exposed.
This almost insures they will not learn or grow.

 

[Iconoclast]

My purpose for this thread is to hear from five point Calvinists how they came to believe Christ died for them. My difficulty is from the perspective with a general claim Christ died for everyone, no one can know Christ died for one's self if Christ did not die for all, with Romans 5:8 in mind, ". . . while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ." Mere belief does not make what is believed true. So unless Christ's death for sinners is for all sinners is all sinners one cannot presume it includes one's self.

This post is off topic.That is not the point of this thread.Your error of Rom5:8 from the other thread is still error over here.Until you read rom5 as a unit you will stay in this error.

 

[37818]

This post is off topic.That is not the point of this thread.Your error of Rom5:8 from the other thread is still error over here.Until you read rom5 as a unit you will stay in this error.

You are correct. I posted in the wrong thread.

Your right it doesn't make it true. Only what Christ said is true not what we sometimes think. Simply we cannot think our way in to heaven. Scripture must be followed correctly.
MB

My reply was to this tread in error.

 

[canadyjd]

….

You are asking about things not revealed in the Bible. I simply do not see the point or benefit.

I do not understand how formulating a doctrine of why the lost do not believe draws one closer to Christ.

The answer is revealed in scripture. Jesus told some “you do not believe because you are not of My sheep”.

But I agree that you do not understand why it’s important.

Thanks for the comments

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

The difference is choice. I know you will not believe that but it's the truth. People do not want to be saved. Only some do and are saved. Our choice is as simple as it can be. Can you see that?
MB

So, you are saying that those that believe “want” to be saved and those that reject don’t want to be saved. Is that correct?

peace to you

 

[MB]

So, you are saying that those that believe “want” to be saved and those that reject don’t want to be saved. Is that correct?

peace to you

Yes
MB

 

[canadyjd]

No matter what you may think it always boils down to the choices we make.Some men love there sins and do not wish to give them up. Some of those men even though they claim to be saved still love there sins more than Christ. The Lord will not recognize them as his and tell them to leave because they are not truly His
MB

Ok, so those that do not believe love their sin more than Jesus. I guess you believe the opposite is true, that those who are saved love Jesus more than their sin. Is that the difference?

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Yes
MB

Thank you for the candid comments

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Perhaps the answer can be better answered (or explained) by looking at different topics.

Why does one person believe covid is dangerous while the person next to him or her doesnt?

Why do some hold to a KJO view while others don't even when exposed to the sane information.

We could ask a million of similar questions.

Why did I choose to have a country ham biscuit for breakfast this morning while the guy in front of me chose a sausage biscuit?

The question itself is not relevant. We are different people. Nothing has to make us choose differently.

Please don’t introduce “other topics” like covid into this thread. It can only derail.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

The answer is revealed in scripture. Jesus told some “you do not believe because you are not of My sheep”.

But I agree that you do not understand why it’s important.

Thanks for the comments

peace to you

The context of the passage was that those who challenged him were not his sheep. The "sheep" are followers of Christ (unbelievers are never called "sheep").

I never said it is not an important question. I was saying it is not one that needed to be asked in the context of our conversation. It has no bearing on our salvation or our walk with Christ.

If you want to know how we are saved there are two perspectives. We believe (repent and believe). God takes out our heart of stone and puts His Spirit in us.

I am not sure what you are getting g at, but given the last line implies an insult I am assuming you are a Calvinist just looking for a fight.

But the difference between a Calvinist and me in regards to divine vs human will in regards to salvation is not about what Calvinism confirms but in what it denies.

I believe people are predestined to salvation and to condemnation. The difference is I do not believe God's will is human will (I believe our choices are freely made within God's sovereignty).

 

[JonC]

Please don’t introduce “other topics” like covid into this thread. It can only derail.

peace to you

I am not introducing new topics (although thread drift normally happens).

I am saying your answer about belief is the same regardless of the questions.

 

[Revmitchell]

The answer is revealed in scripture. Jesus told some “you do not believe because you are not of My sheep”.

But I agree that you do not understand why it’s important.

Thanks for the comments

peace to you

The problem with your use of this verse is context. The sheep spoken of here is not all believers throughout history but only those who are in the immediate ministry of Jesus.

In John 17 Jesus prays for those who the Father gave Him. This is a reference to the immediate disciples only.

 

[Silverhair]

I apologize for this long post. but there are several issues and questions to cover.

Ok, first, revelation in OT and NT can be divided into general revelation, found in creation, and special revelation which is God making a direct communication with someone or a group.

General revelation, found in creation, according to Romans 1, never saves anyone. It only renders all mankind without excuse and condemns them.

In the OT days, God gave special revelation to certain people. He chose them and revealed Himself to them in various ways. Abraham and the three “angels”. Jacob wrestling with the “man” by the water. Moses and the burning bush, visions dreams and so on.

In Hebrews 1, the writer tells us that in those days God revealed Himself in various and sundry ways but in these last days, He has revealed Himself through His Son.

So Jesus is the final special revelation of God to His creation.

1 Cor 1: 19-22 or so, tells us that the wisdom of the world failed to know God and that God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those that believe.

That is a definitive statement that the one and only method God has ordained to bring people to salvation is the preaching the gospel.

Also in 1 Cor chapter 15 or so, Paul gives the things that are of first importance concerning the gospel. They are Jesus died for our sins, according to scripture; He was buried and raised from the dead, according to scripture; and that He was seen alive by more than 500 people that knew Him to have died.

So, I’ll ask again. Do you agree that the general revelation found in creation never saves anyone? Do you agree the gospel is necessary for salvation?

peace to you

So are you saying that God had to have had a special revelation with all 7000 that did not bow to Baal Rom 11:4? This would indicate to me that man can turn to God without that. Do you disagree? You have taken a special revelation to certain people and have made it the only way that God can draw people to Himself but the bible disagrees with that view Joh 12:32 “...will draw all peoples to Myself”

While the world in general my reject the truths of God that does not mean the all people do, we have a prime example of someone saved with out hearing the gospel message. How do you deal with the criminal on the cross.

Luk 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Christ Jesus had not died, been buried, or risen so no gospel presentation, yet the man was saved. Correct. The man just asked Christ Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom. From your view the man was not saved but Christ Jesus said he was.

You want to limit how God can bring someone to a saving faith but since God is sovereign then He can do what He wants. You point to 1Co 1:21 but please note what it does not say in that verse. It does not say

>> it pleased God {that only} through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.<< While you may think that the hearing of the Gospel is the only way that is not what I see in scripture and I do not think we should limit God in this matter.

I trust that I have answered your questions.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree that we are to love our neighbor and share the gospel with them.

I do not get, however, why it is important to our own relationship with Christ to formulate a doctrine of tge lost and why they do not believe.


We can share the gospel but we cannot make people believe. I get that in evangelism we try to communicate in a meaningful way.

I believe Paul handled this situation very well when addressing Agrippa.

Actually Jon I was just responding to this comment >>What is that to us?<<

 

[canadyjd]

The problem with your use of this verse is context. The sheep spoken of here is not all believers throughout history but only those who are in the immediate ministry of Jesus.

In John 17 Jesus prays for those who the Father gave Him. This is a reference to the immediate disciples only.

The context of the “sheep” supports my view. Jesus said He had other sheep (Gentiles) not of that fold. He calls them by name as well and they follow Him.

John 17 is a repeated theme that “all the Father gives Him” will be saved. The context does not support your view that Jesus is only speaking about His disciples.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

There is a spectrum of unbelief.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4, ". . . But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. . . ."

For us believers, 1 Corinthians 1:10, ". . . Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. . . ." We need to find where we agree on the very issues we disagree on." Easier said than done.

If someone has spent much time talking to people about faith/salvation they will appreciate what you have said. Some just do not understand what it is, all the way through to flat out hate of anything to do with God.

Why some believe and others do not is something only they could tell you.