If you are not a “Calvinist”….

[canadyjd]

2 Corinthians 7:10. For godly grief produces a repentance not to be regretted and leading to salvation, but worldly grief produces death.

Maybe you articulate the point plainly? Are you saying those who are saved have “Godly grief that produces repentance” while those who are not saved have “worldly grief that produces death”?

Why did one have “Godly grief” and the other have “worldly grief”?

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Maybe you articulate the point plainly? Are you saying those who are saved have “Godly grief that produces repentance” while those who are not saved have “worldly grief that produces death”?

Why did one have “Godly grief” and the other have “worldly grief”?

peace to you

I am saying that godly grief produces repentance leading to salvation while worldly grief mearly leads to death.

Why does one have godly grief and the other doesn't? That is not a question for the saved. The point of the passage is the reason we are grieved when convicted - it produces repentance leading to salvation. The verse was not actually about those who are not saved. What is that to us?

 

[canadyjd]

I am saying that godly grief produces repentance leading to salvation while worldly grief mearly leads to death.

Why does one have godly grief and the other doesn't? That is not a question for the saved. The point of the passage is the reason we are grieved when convicted - it produces repentance leading to salvation. The verse was not actually about those who are not saved. What is that to us?

So, your answer is we shouldn’t ask why one believed and one didn’t?

peace to you

 

[JonC]

So, your answer is we shouldn’t ask why one believed and one didn’t?

peace to you

Yes. I'm saying that is God's business. What are we looking for by asking why some refuse to believe?

 

[canadyjd]

Yes. I'm saying that is God's business. What are we looking for by asking why some refuse to believe?

I’m trying to understand God, who He is and how He works. I’m trying to work out my salvation in fear and trembling. I’m attempting to follow God Holy Spirit leading me into a closer relationship with Jesus my Lord by clinging to the truths found in scripture.

Just that for a start

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

First, there is another option other than “no will” and “free will”. That is “human will” enslaved by sin and unable to comprehend the gospel or to desire God.

I want to elaborate a little on your statement that “God draws people to Himself but does not force people to believe”.

Let’s talk about that. OK?

peace to you

Sure stay biblical and no problem. I say that because I have had other "biblical" discussions and they have been anything but biblical. They want to bring in all their pet theories.

 

[Silverhair]

I am saying that godly grief produces repentance leading to salvation while worldly grief mearly leads to death.

Why does one have godly grief and the other doesn't? That is not a question for the saved. The point of the passage is the reason we are grieved when convicted - it produces repentance leading to salvation. The verse was not actually about those who are not saved. What is that to us?

I think Christ Jesus answered that question for you.
Mar 12:31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these.

What is the most loving thing we can do for our neighbor? Help them understand who Christ Jesus is and why they need Him in their lives. We are to be salt & light in this world and a voice for Christ Jesus.

 

[canadyjd]

Sure stay biblical and no problem. I say that because I have had other "biblical" discussions and they have been anything but biblical. They want to bring in all their pet theories.

Thank you. I’ll do my best to stay biblical.

We are talking about the statement “God draws people to Himself but doesn’t force anyone to believe”

In that post you mentioned God revealing Himself in nature as part of that “drawing”. I believe Romans tells us the general revelation of God found in creation never saved anyone and never will. Do you agree with that?

Additionally, I believe 1 Cor supports that belief and tells us that the gospel is necessary for salvation.

Do you agree with those two statements?

peace to you

 

[Iconoclast]

Looks as if no one can answer this.

 

[Silverhair]

Thank you. I’ll do my best to stay biblical.

We are talking about the statement “God draws people to Himself but doesn’t force anyone to believe”

In that post you mentioned God revealing Himself in nature as part of that “drawing”. I believe Romans tells us the general revelation of God found in creation never saved anyone and never will. Do you agree with that?

Additionally, I believe 1 Cor supports that belief and tells us that the gospel is necessary for salvation.

Do you agree with those two statements?

peace to you

I do not think I would say "never". God can and will use any method He wants to to draw people to Himself. The OT is a good example of that. In modern times we have those that have a direct vision of Christ Jesus in answer to prayer. But to answer your main question the drawing or even the gospel never saves anyone, only God can save.

The gospel is just one way that people can be draw to Christ Jesus. I have found over the years that we have to meet them where they are. When you say the gospel, what do you mean by that. Not trying to be difficult just want to be sure we are talking about the same thing. I have heard people that you have to use certain words or it is no good.

 

[Silverhair]

Looks as if no one can answer this.

I notice that you have not made an attempt. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Iconoclast]

I notice that you have not made an attempt. What are your thoughts on this?

The OP asked for non Cals to give an honest answer so I as a impartial observer have noticed all have avoided and diverted from any honest attempt to address the question without changing it.
Are you honest enough to admit you observe this same pattern?

 

[canadyjd]

I do not think I would say "never". God can and will use any method He wants to to draw people to Himself. The OT is a good example of that. In modern times we have those that have a direct vision of Christ Jesus in answer to prayer. But to answer your main question the drawing or even the gospel never saves anyone, only God can save.

The gospel is just one way that people can be draw to Christ Jesus. I have found over the years that we have to meet them where they are. When you say the gospel, what do you mean by that. Not trying to be difficult just want to be sure we are talking about the same thing. I have heard people that you have to use certain words or it is no good.

I apologize for this long post. but there are several issues and questions to cover.

Ok, first, revelation in OT and NT can be divided into general revelation, found in creation, and special revelation which is God making a direct communication with someone or a group.

General revelation, found in creation, according to Romans 1, never saves anyone. It only renders all mankind without excuse and condemns them.

In the OT days, God gave special revelation to certain people. He chose them and revealed Himself to them in various ways. Abraham and the three “angels”. Jacob wrestling with the “man” by the water. Moses and the burning bush, visions dreams and so on.

In Hebrews 1, the writer tells us that in those days God revealed Himself in various and sundry ways but in these last days, He has revealed Himself through His Son.

So Jesus is the final special revelation of God to His creation.

1 Cor 1: 19-22 or so, tells us that the wisdom of the world failed to know God and that God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those that believe.

That is a definitive statement that the one and only method God has ordained to bring people to salvation is the preaching the gospel.

Also in 1 Cor chapter 15 or so, Paul gives the things that are of first importance concerning the gospel. They are Jesus died for our sins, according to scripture; He was buried and raised from the dead, according to scripture; and that He was seen alive by more than 500 people that knew Him to have died.

So, I’ll ask again. Do you agree that the general revelation found in creation never saves anyone? Do you agree the gospel is necessary for salvation?

peace to you

 

[JonC]

I’m trying to understand God, who He is and how He works. I’m trying to work out my salvation in fear and trembling. I’m attempting to follow God Holy Spirit leading me into a closer relationship with Jesus my Lord by clinging to the truths found in scripture.

Just that for a start

peace to you

We all should. But perhaps the way to understand God is through Christ rather than wondering how the lost do not believe.

My personal view from reading Scripture is that the mind of God is beyond human understanding. What we know of the Father is revealed through the Son as recorded in Scripture.

You are asking about things not revealed in the Bible. I simply do not see the point or benefit.

I do not understand how formulating a doctrine of why the lost do not believe draws one closer to Christ.

 

[JonC]

I think Christ Jesus answered that question for you.
Mar 12:31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these.

What is the most loving thing we can do for our neighbor? Help them understand who Christ Jesus is and why they need Him in their lives. We are to be salt & light in this world and a voice for Christ Jesus.

I agree that we are to love our neighbor and share the gospel with them.

I do not get, however, why it is important to our own relationship with Christ to formulate a doctrine of tge lost and why they do not believe.


We can share the gospel but we cannot make people believe. I get that in evangelism we try to communicate in a meaningful way.

I believe Paul handled this situation very well when addressing Agrippa.

 

[MB]

I don’t believe faith is a work. I had no intention of this being a “gotcha” question or that it is often used by “Calvinists”. My question is sincere.

Two people hear the gospel. One believes, one rejects. What made the difference?

For the “Calvinist” it is clear that salvation is a work of God, start to finish.

If you don’t know, just say so.

peace to you

The difference is choice. I know you will not believe that but it's the truth. People do not want to be saved. Only some do and are saved. Our choice is as simple as it can be. Can you see that?
MB

 

[37818]

The difference is choice. I know you will not believe that but it's the truth. People do not want to be saved. Only some do and are saved. Our choice is as simple as it can be. Can you see that?
MB

There is a spectrum of unbelief.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4, ". . . But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. . . ."

For us believers, 1 Corinthians 1:10, ". . . Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. . . ." We need to find where we agree on the very issues we disagree on." Easier said than done.

 

[MB]

There is a spectrum of unbelief.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4, ". . . But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. . . ."

For us believers, 1 Corinthians 1:10, ". . . Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. . . ." We need to find where we agree on the very issues we disagree on." Easier said than done

When a man rejects Jesus it is not the end of possible Salvation. It's what repentance is all about. It's the turning away from your natural life to Christ. Some have to reach a point in there sins that the only possible freedom from the consequences of sin, is Christ. The bottom of the barrel so to speak The smallest scripture given to a man can bring him to Christ. The word of God is like a seed given the right conditions it will grow. It did in me.
MB

 

[37818]

My purpose for this thread is to hear from five point Calvinists how they came to believe Christ died for them. My difficulty is from the perspective with a general claim Christ died for everyone, no one can know Christ died for one's self if Christ did not die for all, with Romans 5:8 in mind, ". . . while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ." Mere belief does not make what is believed true. So unless Christ's death for sinners is for all sinners is all sinners one cannot presume it includes one's self.

 

[MB]

Maybe you articulate the point plainly? Are you saying those who are saved have “Godly grief that produces repentance” while those who are not saved have “worldly grief that produces death”?

Why did one have “Godly grief” and the other have “worldly grief”?

peace to you

No matter what you may think it always boils down to the choices we make.Some men love there sins and do not wish to give them up. Some of those men even though they claim to be saved still love there sins more than Christ. The Lord will not recognize them as his and tell them to leave because they are not truly His
MB