If you are not a “Calvinist”….

[Yeshua1]

I believe this is @Revmitchell s answer:
the act of coming to God and rejecting Him is left to the individual even though they both hear the same gospel. This is by Gods design.

Therefore, Rev seems to be dualistic. Humans cause their own salvation, but that is the way Rev believes God designed it.

So, short answer: Humans cause their own salvation, according to what Rev has specifically stated.

Now, let's see if Rev tries to backtrack.

which would indeed fit into real and full free will gospel!

 

[Revmitchell]

Be careful of those who intentionally misrepresent what you have posted in order to create a straw man to defeat.

 

[AustinC]

Be careful of those who intentionally misrepresent what you have posted in order to create a straw man to defeat.

Rev, I quoted exactly what you said. I interpreted exactly what you said. If my interpretation is incorrect, then correct me. Otherwise I stand by my interpretation of what you have posted. Don't just come back with some generic "be careful" statement. Actually engage and teach your position. If you will not, then you will have to live with the interpretation of the reader. The onus is on you to specifically teach your position and correct where it is not precise.
I leave the burden on you and what you said. I did not alter your statement.

 

[canadyjd]

I believe this is @Revmitchell s answer:
the act of coming to God and rejecting Him is left to the individual even though they both hear the same gospel. This is by Gods design.

Therefore, Rev seems to be dualistic. Humans cause their own salvation, but that is the way Rev believes God designed it.

So, short answer: Humans cause their own salvation, according to what Rev has specifically stated.

Now, let's see if Rev tries to backtrack.

I agree with you most of the time, but I would like for people to only repeat what others have claimed their position to be without rephrasing.

You are being unfair to Rev., I think, to say he believes people cause their own salvation. I don’t believe he means that.

I don’t think he is (forgive me Rev) thinking that deeply about the reason “why?”.

He believes Jesus’ statement that the saved are those that “do what is true..,come to the light” and those that reject “love darkness”.

I believe ,perhaps you do as well, that everyone loves the darkness and will not “do what is true.. come to the light” unless God intervenes and makes it so.

The version of John he uses reads their works have been “carried out in God”. My version says their deeds have been “wrought in God”. I have always seen v.21 as explaining the prior verse of “do what is true” as being a work of God in bringing people out of the darkness and into the light.

I doubt Rev believes there were people “doing what is true” prior to Gods influence, but I’ll let him speak for himself.

Thanks for the comment

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, mankind - inside the sovereignty of God - MUST believe and obey.

not repent?

 

[SavedByGrace]

What was the cause why one lost sinner heard the Gospel message and received Jesus as their Lord and savior, and yet one right next to them stayed deaf and dumb and blind?

because ALL humans can REJECT the Gospel, as is very clear from Paul

and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned. " Thess. 2:10-12

And as Acts 7:51, "O stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so you do"

So, the I in TULIP is shown to be FALSE!

 

[AustinC]

I agree with you most of the time, but I would like for people to only repeat what others have claimed their position to be without rephrasing.

You are being unfair to Rev., I think, to say he believes people cause their own salvation. I don’t believe he means that.

I don’t think he is (forgive me Rev) thinking that deeply about the reason “why?”.

He believes Jesus’ statement that the saved are those that “do what is true..,come to the light” and those that reject “love darkness”.

I believe ,perhaps you do as well, that everyone loves the darkness and will not “do what is true.. come to the light” unless God intervenes and makes it so.

The version of John he uses reads their works have been “carried out in God”. My version says their deeds have been “wrought in God”. I have always seen v.21 as explaining the prior verse of “do what is true” as being a work of God in bringing people out of the darkness and into the light.

I doubt Rev believes there were people “doing what is true” prior to Gods influence, but I’ll let him speak for himself.

Thanks for the comment

peace to you

I have quoted what @Revmitchell has said.
I interpreted what he said. If I interpreted incorrectly, Rev can take the time to clarify his words to us. The question remains as to whether he will clarify and sharpen his position so we can all know what, exactly, he has meant by the words he spoke.
What does Rev mean?
"the act of coming to God and rejecting Him is left to the individual even though they both hear the same gospel. This is by Gods design."

 

[Silverhair]

So, the difference is that those who believe are willing to give up their lifestyles and those that reject are not willing to give up their lifestyles?

Is that correct?

peace to you

That is a simple way of putting it. Man has been given lots of information, creation etc, but the usual reason is personal. They do not want to change their lifestyle whatever that happens to be. They want to be part of the world system. God draws people to Himself but He does not force people to believe nor does He believe for them. Those really are the only two options in this, irresistible grace or prevenient grace, no will or a free will.

 

[Silverhair]

I have quoted what @Revmitchell has said.
I interpreted what he said. If I interpreted incorrectly, Rev can take the time to clarify his words to us. The question remains as to whether he will clarify and sharpen his position so we can all know what, exactly, he has meant by the words he spoke.
What does Rev mean?
"the act of coming to God and rejecting Him is left to the individual even though they both hear the same gospel. This is by Gods design."

Austin a question for you, what do you see as the problem, if any, with what Rev said in his post as you quoted?

 

[canadyjd]

I have quoted what @Revmitchell has said.
I interpreted what he said. If I interpreted incorrectly, Rev can take the time to clarify his words to us. The question remains as to whether he will clarify and sharpen his position….

He answered by saying you misrepresented his beliefs when you stated he believes humans cause their own salvation. He did not say that. You make that connection and there may be truth there if you dig very deep, but he doesn’t believe that.

You and I both know the futility of “clarifying” misrepresentations when folks are not looking for honest discussions on an issue and only seeking to “score points” in the debate.

How many times have we seen paragraph after paragraph of “proof texts” on both sides only to see those passages dismissed with “you are taking scripture out of context” and no further elaboration?

I want honest dialog. I want to know why folks believe what they believe. If I don’t know why, I can’t convince them otherwise.

Thanks for the comments

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Most do not understand how salvation happens. First God imparts the new birth. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit causing us to believe, based on this experience. If someone pats you on the back, you received a pat on the back just as we received Christ. Any act of the will before experiencing this has nothing to do with salvation.

So you have people saved before they believe.

 

[AustinC]

He answered by saying you misrepresented his beliefs when you stated he believes humans cause their own salvation. He did not say that. You make that connection and there may be truth there if you dig very deep, but he doesn’t believe that.

You and I both know the futility of “clarifying” misrepresentations when folks are not looking for honest discussions on an issue and only seeking to “score points” in the debate.

How many times have we seen paragraph after paragraph of “proof texts” on both sides only to see those passages dismissed with “you are taking scripture out of context” and no further elaboration?

I want honest dialog. I want to know why folks believe what they believe. If I don’t know why, I can’t convince them otherwise.

Thanks for the comments

peace to you

That is not an answer of any merit. It's like receiving a shrug from your teenage daughter. What does that mean?
I have seen Rev be passive aggressive when he recognizes he is in a pickle. It's okay if he doesn't clarify. It just means he cannot go beyond his shrug.

 

[canadyjd]

That is not an answer of any merit. It's like receiving a shrug from your teenage daughter. What does that mean?
I have seen Rev be passive aggressive when he recognizes he is in a pickle. It's okay if he doesn't clarify. It just means he cannot go beyond his shrug.

There is merit to his statement. He did not say humans save themselves and he obviously doesn’t believe it.

Quite frankly, I don’t blame him for not wasting time trying to convince you otherwise.

I often ignore posts that claim I’ve said something I haven’t (see post #4 as an example) because the debate isn’t an intellectually honest debate.

Thanks for the comments

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

There is merit to his statement. He did not say humans save themselves and he obviously doesn’t believe it.

Quite frankly, I don’t blame him for not wasting time trying to convince you otherwise.

I often ignore posts that claim I’ve said something I haven’t (see post #4 as an example) because the debate isn’t an intellectually honest debate.

Thanks for the comments

peace to you

Fair enough. I find Rev doesn't actually share what he really believes with clarity. Almost always it is ambiguous.

 

[kyredneck]

It is just silly to say that faith is a work and it makes no sense.

???

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6

 

[JonC]

What was different about you that caused you to believe the gospel unto salvation and not the guy or lady next to you?

John 3:18 Anyone who believes in Him is not condemned, but anyone who does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God.

I believed. Assuming the guy or lady next to me is lost, it is because they did not believe.

 

[canadyjd]

Fair enough. I find Rev doesn't actually share what he really believes with clarity. Almost always it is ambiguous.

Thanks for understanding.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

John 3:18 Anyone who believes in Him is not condemned, but anyone who does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God.

I believed. Assuming the guy or lady next to me is lost, it is because they did not believe.

That really doesn’t answer the question “why” someone believed and others didn’t.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

That is a simple way of putting it. Man has been given lots of information, creation etc, but the usual reason is personal. They do not want to change their lifestyle whatever that happens to be. They want to be part of the world system. God draws people to Himself but He does not force people to believe nor does He believe for them. Those really are the only two options in this, irresistible grace or prevenient grace, no will or a free will.

First, there is another option other than “no will” and “free will”. That is “human will” enslaved by sin and unable to comprehend the gospel or to desire God.

I want to elaborate a little on your statement that “God draws people to Himself but does not force people to believe”.

Let’s talk about that. OK?

peace to you

 

[JonC]

That really doesn’t answer the question “why” someone believed and others didn’t.

peace to you

2 Corinthians 7:10. For godly grief produces a repentance not to be regretted and leading to salvation, but worldly grief produces death.