If you believe you can lose your salvation, are you really saved?

[DHK]

3AM,
Look carefully again at verse 38.
"The just shall live by faith BUT.
That word "but" is there for a purpose. It shows a contrast, a contrast between those that are saved (live by faith) and those who don't (fall into perdition). Then Paul declares which group he belongs to in verse 39: But WE we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Paul declares that he belonged to those that were saved as opposed to those who were not.
DHK

 

[Frank]

Jesus himself proclaimed man could leave him and be lost. In John 6:66-71,the Bible says,From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68  Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69  And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70  Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71  He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
The Bible says in Acts 1:25,That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Question: what is the penalty of transgressing God's Law? Where was Judas' own place?

The Bible says in John 5:17,All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

The penalty for transgressing God's law is damnation. In Revelation 20:10, the Bible says, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The Bible says in Revelation 22:15,  For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Ananias and Sapphira lied. If they failed to repent of the sin, they would be lost eternally. See Rev.22:15.

In Acts 8, Simon the sorcerer becomes a Christian. Acts 8:12-14. In verse 18, Simon offers money to the apostles for the power to impart miraculous gifts. Peter, in verse 20 and 21 tells Simon his money was to perish with thee. One perishes unless he repents of sin. See Luke 13:3. Therefore, Simon is told to repent of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if the thought of thine heart be forgiven thee. Acts 8:22. Peter proclaims to Simom he is in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity. Acts 8: 23. Simon asks them to pray for his forgiveness and obvious reference to him confessing he has done wrong.

The text clearly teaches that a Christian can sin and be lost.

Hymaneus and Alexander of I Tim.1:18-20, were Christians who had become shipwrecked concerning the Faith. I Tim. 1:19. These men had blasphemed and were given over to Satan. According to Rev. 20: 10, where is the devil in eternity, and who is with him? See Rev. 20;10,15. The obvious implication from the text is one who is on board the ship of the faith may become shipwrecked and be lost.

The expression " the faith" is a reference to the Christian system of the gospel. see Jude 3, Acts 6;7; 13:8; 14:22; 16:5. One must, first, be on the ship of faith to become shipwrecked. It is impossible to be shipwrecked without being on the ship!!

In II Tim. 2:17-21, Hymaneus and Philetus are Christians who are teaching false doctrine. The context of II Tim. 2:2 teaches us to commit the truth to " faithful men who are able to teach others also." This is an obvious reference to committing the gospel to fellow Christians that are able and willing to teach, as God has ordained that Chrisitans teach the gospel to the lost. See II Tim. 2:21. Hymaneus and Philetrus are examples of apostates who illustrate the point for the need of II Tim. 2: 2. If they do not repent of their false teaching, according to Rev. 20:10, where will they live in eternity?

[ June 25, 2003, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
3AM,
Look carefully again at verse 38.
"The just shall live by faith BUT.
That word "but" is there for a purpose. It shows a contrast, a contrast between those that are saved (live by faith) and those who don't (fall into perdition). Then Paul declares which group he belongs to in verse 39: But WE we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Paul declares that he belonged to those that were saved as opposed to those who were not.
DHK

Those verses demonstrate a two groups that used to be one. Look again. In context:

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38(Group 1) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back(Group 2), my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

NOW, notice that the context is LIVING in the Grace of God, through obedience and good works. Those who 'DREW BACK' did so to PERDITION, which is SIN. They went back to their sin. They were ONCE part of the house of Faith. THEY LEFT.

They HAD TO be there in the first place in order to turn back!

Look at this verse as well:

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

ONCE was working for Christ, THEN looked back. NOT FIT it says. NOT GOING.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew, What?

We will always be human beings..forever. Body, Soul, and Spirit. the real "image of man" is the spirit of the resurrected man, Jesus Christ..The God/Man.

Would you care to prove your statement? Perhaps some evidence? Maybe you could bring Paul back to life and demonstrate that he has a physical body of flesh, bones, and blood.

we get his spirit, We keep our soul (well after being renewed) and after our physical death of our old body, we get a new one. and no, we will not meet in heaven without bodies...or else how would we: see,hear,speak,feel,taste.etc,etc,etc. (So I'm thinking, we'll really need that new earth promised)

We do not get Jesus spirit, our spirit becomes conformed to the teachings of Jesus. Now, I agree that when we are resurrected it will be in a new "glorified" body, but no one knows the composition or consistancy of our resurrection body. When we are in the spirit without a body of flesh, we will be able to see, hear, and speak, in the spirit and we will be able to look upon the Father in All of His Glory which we cannot now do and remain alive. The need for feel and taste is questionable because spirits do not eat solid food, so why is taste necessary?. Also, spirit is impervious to mass, so why have the sense of "feel"?

and God really did save you before you chose him, or else how could you have heard him calling you ?. answer: through spiritual eyes and ears of your new faith, that comes with your new spirit. there is no free will on mans part, in Gods initial choice of who HE puts his spirit into. He chooses, and your new spirit is immediately drawn to "find Him". and then and only then you can hear "spiritual ideas concerning God". Not before.

This cannot be supported with scripture or any other documentary evidence. Salvation is the result of FAITH, and FAITH cometh by HEARING and HEARING by the Word of God.

You are saying that Salvation precedes faith and that faith comes before hearing. That is greatly out of sync with scripture.

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,
we exist in two realms simultaneously.
heaven (spirit) and earth (physical).

our physical cannot enter into the spiritual, thus "our flesh" cannot inherit, control, possess, or operate within.

only our spirit "operates within the spiritual"
and only our physical "operates within the physical".

we are designed to forever be a creature that operates within these two distinct and seperate realms simultaneously.

and it is our soul that acts as our interpreter as we operate in the two realms simulataneously.

nothing physical exists in the spirit realm. so seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, etc, etc,etc. are not valid statements.
within the bible there exist a vast amount of anthropomorphic language that God uses to describe something that can closely be related to man and be somewhat understood, yet doesnt exist physically in the spiritual realm.

Ill be working on other responses, so stay tuned

Me2

 

[Gunther]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
1. Gunther,

You wrote, "If a person departs, it is because they were never truly part to begin with."

2. Which leads us to the next question, "How can you say that you are one who will not depart in the future if you may very well depart in the future?" Or, stated otherwise, "How can you say that you are saved if you may very well have never been saved to begin with?"

3. Existentially speaking, you have no infallible way of knowing that you are one of the elect until the day you are judged by Jesus Christ. If you say that you do - well - that is illogical because those who thought they did know that they were saved infallibly before they "fell away" were apparently wrong.

And you may very well be "wrong" as well.

Carson, please read through before you jump the gun on this.

1. You do know that is what 1 John 2:19 says, right?

2. You can know that you are saved because justification happens at the point of repentance from sin and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. If you truly forsake all else, and believe in Christ for salvation, you are saved. If you trust your ability to keep it or if you are trusting your ability to keep from undoing Christ's work, you are not saved. Why? Because your faith is self-focused.

3. Not true. I can know. Biblical faith endures. So if you are saved, you have confidence that you will continue to grow and will endure. All the warnings in Scripture are to motivate one to push on and grow in faith.

Imagine a runner. He is running hard to finish the race. He sees all these warning signs about not staying on the road.

The first says: watch out for alligators in the water. He thinks to himself, I don't want to be eaten by alligators. So he stays on the course and does not waver.

The second says: quicksand is right this way. He thinks to himself, I don't want to be in quicksand. So he stays the course and does not waver.

You get the idea.

This is exactly what Paul was talking about. He even said that those who get the prize are those who compete according to the rules.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Me2:
Yelsew,
we exist in two realms simultaneously.
heaven (spirit) and earth (physical).

our physical cannot enter into the spiritual, thus "our flesh" cannot inherit, control, possess, or operate within.

only our spirit "operates within the spiritual"
and only our physical "operates within the physical".

we are designed to forever be a creature that operates within these two distinct and seperate realms simultaneously.

and it is our soul that acts as our interpreter as we operate in the two realms simulataneously.

nothing physical exists in the spirit realm. so seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, etc, etc,etc. are not valid statements.
within the bible there exist a vast amount of anthropomorphic language that God uses to describe something that can closely be related to man and be somewhat understood, yet doesnt exist physically in the spiritual realm.

Ill be working on other responses, so stay tuned

Me2

Me2,
I cannot think of a single Bible verse that would support this idea. This sounds like pure spiritualism, which is a pagan idea.

There is no 'spiritual' realm.

We exist in space and time? Those who have died exist in a differnt demension?

Sounds like you've been watching Crossing Over, with John Edwards.

 

[Me2]

Hi Mom,

we exist in two "dimensions" at the same time.

a physical realm..time and space (as you said)

and a spiritual (the abode of all spiritual beings)

or else how can someone standing in front of you and say "Im demon posessed", yet, you cant see the demon.

or:

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

the invisible realm of the spirit world..

and Ill have to refer to common sense on the rest.

Jesus had a sinless body, a sinless spirit.
the original "image of man".

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

now the seed of God has to be placed in man before man can acknowledges it existence. before then we have no tendency towards anything of God (or care).

when the seed is placed inside us, its very essence craves to find (or return to) its creator.

we can look at the parable of the sower and the seed

Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

its not what is the "word". but "who".

the spirit is deposited and immediately, the holy spirit begins to teach us what and who that spirit is. we can say the HS speaks to us (to our new spiritual ears) wisdom and then we are shown by faith to actually "see" with our new eyes of faith,(understanding) what has happened on our behalf. (ie, jesus dying)

we have sown within us, a seed. it is described as "not have been born yet".

the bible mentions in many instances the occupation of us as individuals bringing to birth, this new spirit, or seed.

upon birth, we recognize in the new believer, the acknoledgement of Jesus being our sacrifice, propitiator, and Christ before God.

no preacher can express that, to the degree necessary that we will place faith in, yet we do acknowledge the message being spoken.

it is God himself speaking spiritual words of wisdom and understanding to OUR SPIRITS before any believer or anyone else will place faith in "the message" spoken to our carnal ears as "truth" of God.

and yes, we can be dumb as a rock or even rebellious towards God at this time, yet if the seed is within us (a new spirit), WE ARE SETAPART or CALLED By God himself, to be a member of His Family.

once we are capable of acknowledging communication with the holy spirit and our new "baby" spirit. is when we discover who Jesus is and His role as Christ before our spiritual father.

(and yes, I know this will send some of yous Lordship salvation folks into a tissy.. Oh well.)

we always forget. God speaks to perfect spirits.

our old spirit dont give a hoot about God. Its actually in competition and will refuse everything offered. God need to do a little Holy surgery to remove our old spirit and give us a new perfect spirit and then explain what HAS happened.

all we can do is...

Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

accept what has happened by what God tell you, or proceed to create you own religious fantasy world of what happened.

 

[Yelsew]

Well Bless your heart 3Angelsmom, but I side with Me2 on that spiritual realm. Faith is not of the flesh, our flesh fails us often. But our faith need not fail us at all. Faith is of the spirit.

There is most definitely a natural time space continuum and there is a spiritual realm. The natural is corrupted by sin, so that it is in a constant degradation in which every living thing dies except the spirit, and that death cycle of the natural brings with it inherent disease, famine, flood, etc. and within mankind, progression from birth to death.

The spirit realm however does not have the same aging factors. A person in their nineties can, and frequently does demonstrate a spirit that is quite young, yet constrained within a failing body. Once the flesh dies, the spirit lives on, set free from the constraints of the flesh, but constrained by God within the boundaries of what He, God, established for spirit.

Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. Paul understood that there is truly a spirit world that is separate, but integrated with the natural world so that as Humans having a spirit that is "captured" to the flesh, we can still experience spiritual things such as Joy, comfort, rejoicing, spiritual renewal, etc. Jesus said that which is flesh is flesh, but that which is spirit is indeed spirit. And he wasn't speaking of team spirit, or anything "oooh raah"! He was speaking about the spirit that is temporarily held captive to a body of flesh.

 

[Yelsew]

Me2 said,

nothing physical exists in the spirit realm. so seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, etc, etc,etc. are not valid statements.

Consider my last paragraph of this post, then you will understand why I say, "You make false statements regarding the spiritual realm." The human spirit truly does have "eyes" to see spiritual truth and "ears" to hear spiritual truth, otherwise we would not be able to discern spiritual truth. Jesus, when after resurrection, appeared on the sea or lake shore with his disciples, He ate of the fish that he prepared declaring that he is bodily resurrected, and that spirits do not consume food, therefore there is no need for tasting. Because spirit is impervious to mass, meaning that spirit passes through mass with no resistance whatever, not altering in any manner the mass through which it passes, requires no "touch". If you know any factual information that truly refutes what I've just said, feel free to post it, and we'll discuss it.

within the bible there exist a vast amount of anthropomorphic language that God uses to describe something that can closely be related to man and be somewhat understood, yet doesnt exist physically in the spiritual realm.

Of course physical things do not exist in the spiritual realm, but because man does not in his conscious mind understand things of the spirit, antropomorphic language is used for the sake of relationship. That is, relating that which man does understand to that which man does not understand. We teach our small children by principles of relationship all the time, taking clue from our Lord and Savior!

However, as adult believers, we are supposed to understand that we humans are in reality spirit "held captive" to a body of flesh, which when the flesh dies, is set free from the dead flesh. We cannot bury spirit, because spirit does not die. Even if one drowns in the sea, the flesh succombs to the effect of water, but the spirit is impervious to the water thus it has no effect whatever on the spirit.

That does not make the freed spirit deaf, dumb and blind. But since spirit receives no sustainment from natural food and simply passes through mass, there is no reasons for spirit to have a sense of taste or a sense of touch. Our being, spirit, will see God the Father as He is, because we will be as He is, spirit. Remember when Daniel, Ezekiel, Paul and John were taken into heaven "in the spirit" they came back with wonderful descriptions of things that they could not see with physical eyesight, or hear with physical ears, or say with physical mouth. But they could and did relate to us what heaven is like because in the spirit they were truly in heaven, John, while his body was held captive on the Isle of patmos. Paul, seemed unsure of whether or not his physical body or just his spirit was in a Heavenly place. Ezekiel related things from his spirit, and so did Daniel. There is no mention from any of them of eating physical food or even seeing the eating of physical food. And there is no mention from any of them of touching any solid physical objects while in heaven. From all of that I must conclude that spirit does not eat food, and spirit is not incumbered in the least by anything with mass, and that Jesus resurrected with a physical body.

 

[Gunther]

Me2 appears to be a Gnostic.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Gunther:
Me2 appears to be a Gnostic.

She is a universalist.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Gunther,

All well and good.. except for the fact that I know of individuals who just knew that at one point in time they were saved; they had placed all of their trust in Jesus Christ, etc, etc.. and today they no longer believe in Jesus Christ. They're now convinced that Jesus is no longer who he said he was.

Are these individuals still saved? If you think so, well, God bless you. If not, well, then my original point still stands.

 

[Gunther]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
1. Are these individuals still saved? If you think so, well, God bless you.

2. If not, well, then my original point still stands.

1. They never were. True justification results in an enduring faith.

2. No it doesn't. Paul was confident that he would receive the reward. He assured us that the same is true for all who love his coming.

Many people will acknowledge that Christ is God, he died on the cross for sin, he rose from the dead, etc., and still be lost. For these folks, no matter what they tell you, the object of their faith was not Christ.

 

[Armando]

Originally posted by Gunther:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Carson Weber:
1. Are these individuals still saved? If you think so, well, God bless you.

2. If not, well, then my original point still stands.

1. They never were. True justification results in an enduring faith.

2. No it doesn't. Paul was confident that he would receive the reward. He assured us that the same is true for all who love his coming.

Many people will acknowledge that Christ is God, he died on the cross for sin, he rose from the dead, etc., and still be lost. For these folks, no matter what they tell you, the object of their faith was not Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]I just want to ask this: If two persons accept Jesus as Lord and Savior today, they are both saved today, right?

If they both die and one of them committs murder before dieying, it will be at this point that we know that he/she was not "truly" saved. Is this correct?

Now, we don't the future, so we don't know if both of these persons are truly saved until they die, if one committs murder is not saved, if the other doesn't committ a grave sin then is saved, is this correct?

Bottom line, we will not know who is "truly" saved until we die, because knowing who is "saved" and "not-truly-saved" will depend on the state of our soul when we die?

What am I missing here, isn't this the catholic position as well?

Thanks

Armando

 

[Me2]

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

these are the things that "deceiving people" lack in their moments of great "signs" towards the innocent. sometimes there exist some knowledge of God, but yet the love for others and love for God simply doesnt exist..

A sure sign that the salvation experience is an act and not genuine.

can you lose your salvation...
if you never had it ?

 

[Gunther]

Originally posted by Armando:
1. I just want to ask this: If two persons accept Jesus as Lord and Savior today, they are both saved today, right?

2. If they both die and one of them committs murder before dieying, it will be at this point that we know that he/she was not "truly" saved. Is this correct?

3. Now, we don't the future, so we don't know if both of these persons are truly saved until they die, if one committs murder is not saved, if the other doesn't committ a grave sin then is saved, is this correct?

4. Bottom line, we will not know who is "truly" saved until we die, because knowing who is "saved" and "not-truly-saved" will depend on the state of our soul when we die?

Armando, I will do my best to answer your questions.

1. Right. They are saved the moment and for all of eternity.

2. Committing murder does not cause a person to lose their salvation and neither does it mean that a person is not saved. This is a whole new discussion, but those who have the nature of a murderer are not saved. Fortunately, that is not something that other people can see and know.

3. You are correct to say that "we" do not know for sure. That does not mean that the person does not know for sure. No one knew that Judas was the apostate until Christ pointed it out.

4. Correct. Now, we can address others as though they really are saved. All of the epistles do that very thing. We can judge only through profession and then works. That judgment will be tainted though.

There do exist many plain statements that we can know if a person is not truly saved, ie. denying the deity of Christ, etc.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Me2 and Gunther,

Can you know for sure that you are saved right now?

How do you know?

Thanks,
Kelly

 

[Me2]

Hi Mom,

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love [which ye have] to all the saints,
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

If anything that exists that men may see,
Its hope of a promise being fulfilled.

Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

sad thing is when you hear some witnesses speak, their desire is to take even hope away from others.
and they dont know thats false witnessing..

Me2

 

[Gunther]

3angelsmom:

1. Yes I can know.

2. Because Jesus Christ is the object of my faith and because I have been justified and therefore guaranteed that I will grow in grace and be conformed to his image.

As to my second point, that is really the point. If you think you can "lose" your salvation, then Christ is not the object of one's faith. This is why such a believe carries so much guilt and lack of assurance.