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IF You Hold To Sign Gifts Operating, what verse/Function?

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
They were used to authenticate the messenger of the message in the NT age only, and then primarily that only of an apostle or his associate. Few outside of that circle had those gifts. The Corinthian group abused the gifts. We are told specifically that the gifts would cease. The context tells us that they did--near the end of the first century when the Bible was completed.
That they did--when the Apostles all died off near the end of the first century, for they were signs to verify an apostle--"signs of an apostle."
That they did--for history itself verifies this: not much about speaking in tongues is recorded after the first century except by cults and paganism.
Why do you think that is a gift of the Spirit as defined by the Bible?
Why do you think that falls under "word of knowledge"?
That is not word of knowledge IMO, and according to my study. Word of knowledge has nothing to do with the affairs of others. It had directly to do with revelatory knowledge--knowledge that now is in the Bible, but was not in the Bible previously. When these gifts were operational the Bible was not yet complete. When the Bible was completed (perfected), then that which was in part (tongues, prophecy, knowledge (revelatory) ), these all passed away, ended. They had no more purpose.
The Holy Spirit guides today. If your walk is close with God, God can reveal at times things to you. If you are not walking close with God, even Christians can get caught up in the paranormal, which is what you also have described. I am not saying it is. I trust your walk is close with God.
That is not an objective confirmation. The objective confirmation is the actual answer to prayer. The objective answer that God hears our prayer is our faith in the Word of God and our walk with God. The objective answer to others is that our life is different than others if though we may not realize that it is different. Many times I have been asked, "why is your life different than the others I meet here"? It gives me the opportunity to witness for Christ. The rest of the world lives ungodly lives.

What you say goes against Scripture:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
--The Scripture tells that in OT times God spoke through the prophets at various times in different ways--visions, dreams, audibly, through miracles at times, etc.
But now he speaks to us through His Son. His Son is revealed to us through the completed Word of God, not through miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit. They are not needed. Everything that we need is in the Scriptures.

Experience does not validate the Word of God. It is the other way around. You are using your experience as your authority. That is the Charismatic MO. Their foundation is experience. From there they build. It becomes doctrinal chaos.
You did not describe "word of knowledge" as it is known in the Bible. You described: zeal, an ability to speak well, being led by the Holy Spirit, and hopefully being filled with the Holy Spirit. There was no "word of knowledge" there. That gift has ceased, and had to directly with the giving of NT revelatory knowledge. It ended by the first century when the revelation of God's Word was complete. It is strange to me that you have no remembrance of what is said. That would lead me to believe you were in a trance like condition, and your experience is more related to the paranormal than to Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads into truth and is not forgetful.
True, that is common. It is not a gift of the Spirit. It is being led of the Spirit in one's preaching.
Like what other sign gifts?
Have you ever seen anyone with the gift of healing walk through all the hospitals of any given city and heal everyone that is there--especially those that are in the ER?
It doesn't happen. The gift has ceased.

Why aren't missionaries given the gift of tongues (languages)?
Why do they have to learn the language before they go over to a foreign field? Why isn't that gift legitimately in use today?

The reason is because they have ceased.

:thumbsup::thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:
 

DaChaser1

New Member
:thumbsup::thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:

Only caviat to what DHK wrote here was that the holy Spirit can still"speak" to us in the sense that he can still use circumstances/other christians/ and propmt/urge us to do something/say something, but that will always line up with the Bible, not be extra biblical revelation!
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Only caviat to what DHK wrote here was that the holy Spirit can still"speak" to us in the sense that he can still use circumstances/other christians/ and propmt/urge us to do something/say something, but that will always line up with the Bible, not be extra biblical revelation!

If any message would come in the form of a tongue/language.....if it comes from God it is extra biblical revelation. If God has given us all He said He would....there will not be any other revelation.

if it does not come from God...it is false to begin with.
 

DaChaser1

New Member
If any message would come in the form of a tongue/language.....if it comes from God it is extra biblical revelation. If God has given us all He said He would....there will not be any other revelation.

if it does not come from God...it is false to begin with.

NOT saying that, external form, but would be an inward prompting/lead/direction/guidance from the Holy spirit...

For me, its usually the inward conviction/burden by Him to witness to someone NOW, and every time that I follow His lead, find the empowering to be bold in witnessing to that person with the Gospel!
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
NOT saying that, external form, but would be an inward prompting/lead/direction/guidance from the Holy spirit...

For me, its usually the inward conviction/burden by Him to witness to someone NOW, and every time that I follow His lead, find the empowering to be bold in witnessing to that person with the Gospel!

JF....there is a clear and inward work of the Spirit. As I get older I am coming to see that it is always word,and Christ centered. It works through a biblically educated conscience

JF...all Christians understand that God is God. We want all God has for us.
the day in which we live has many who are looking to replicate pentecost.

Jf.....i would love to be an apostle...but it is not to be. At the same time...God has given the Apostles to all of us as foundational EPH2:20-22

We have been given a complete revelation that as we feed diligently on the word, God will use us as a witness as we go about our lives . We are to be available 24/7.......I do not need the hair to stand up on the back of my neck to realize that God has ordained good works for us.
We live in a nation with multitudes perishing in unbelief all around us.
we are to be prayerfully looking to be salt and light, and occupy for our King in every circumstance of life. God has elect sheep in all the world...we are to find them by preaching the word of the cross. If we are faithful to proclaim the message and remove obstacles[our part] the Spirit will do His work of saving, or reprobating those we speak with.
 

DaChaser1

New Member
JF....there is a clear and inward work of the Spirit. As I get older I am coming to see that it is always word,and Christ centered. It works through a biblically educated conscience

JF...all Christians understand that God is God. We want all God has for us.
the day in which we live has many who are looking to replicate pentecost.

Jf.....i would love to be an apostle...but it is not to be. At the same time...God has given the Apostles to all of us as foundational EPH2:20-22

We have been given a complete revelation that as we feed diligently on the word, God will use us as a witness as we go about our lives . We are to be available 24/7.......I do not need the hair to stand up on the back of my neck to realize that God has ordained good works for us.
We live in a nation with multitudes perishing in unbelief all around us.
we are to be prayerfully looking to be salt and light, and occupy for our King in every circumstance of life. God has elect sheep in all the world...we are to find them by preaching the word of the cross. If we are faithful to proclaim the message and remove obstacles[our part] the Spirit will do His work of saving, or reprobating those we speak with.

Do you hold that God ONLY communicates/"speaks"/Guides/Instructs us thru the Bible today?

That he does NOT lead/guide/prompt by that inward call of the HS at times?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you hold that God ONLY communicates/"speaks"/Guides/Instructs us thru the Bible today?

That he does NOT lead/guide/prompt by that inward call of the HS at times?

JF,
I believe there is a clear dealing with us by the Spirit inwardly.
All people have a God given conscience. Christians have a biblically educated conscience.....the difference being we have the Spirit indwelling us enabling us to welcome the word of God 1cor2....

Jesus said the means of sanctification is the word Jn 17:17....

the psalms speak of God working on the Ot saints...working in their heart and mind. the Nt speaks of the absolute necessity of keeping the heart as we were instructed in proverbs
23Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

I think that staying in the rails of the scripture,and obeying this instruction, are the very means God has ordained.

It is a fine line....so people go off here ....the nature of it is such that some begin to think that every thought that they have is a "message from the Spirit".

You see some here on BB. They put things into the personal and subjective realm.....something like this: I know it was God,and no one is going to tell me that God did not tell me________.

How do you tell someone ...oh yes...it was clearly the Spirit,and not just your own mind?...or oh no.....it was not the Spirit.

In the end....it comes back to the sure word of God.

i have had times where thoughts came to mind, or those Deja Vu kind of things happen. if it is about a person...i pray for them. If it is about an event that is coming up, I pray for wisdom.
Am i going to write a book about it....or claim revelation knowledge, or a word of wisdom???? NO. We are christians with the indwelling Spirit 24/7.
 

DaChaser1

New Member
JF,
I believe there is a clear dealing with us by the Spirit inwardly.
All people have a God given conscience. Christians have a biblically educated conscience.....the difference being we have the Spirit indwelling us enabling us to welcome the word of God 1cor2....

Jesus said the means of sanctification is the word Jn 17:17....

the psalms speak of God working on the Ot saints...working in their heart and mind. the Nt speaks of the absolute necessity of keeping the heart as we were instructed in proverbs


I think that staying in the rails of the scripture,and obeying this instruction, are the very means God has ordained.

It is a fine line....so people go off here ....the nature of it is such that some begin to think that every thought that they have is a "message from the Spirit".

You see some here on BB. They put things into the personal and subjective realm.....something like this: I know it was God,and no one is going to tell me that God did not tell me________.

How do you tell someone ...oh yes...it was clearly the Spirit,and not just your own mind?...or oh no.....it was not the Spirit.

In the end....it comes back to the sure word of God.

i have had times where thoughts came to mind, or those Deja Vu kind of things happen. if it is about a person...i pray for them. If it is about an event that is coming up, I pray for wisdom.
Am i going to write a book about it....or claim revelation knowledge, or a word of wisdom???? NO. We are christians with the indwelling Spirit 24/7.

I think that we are essentially in agreement here!

Would you hold that the HS can and does direct us/place in our minds right verses to give to someone for the right thing to say to them for the occasion , but that would be bring to rembrance the bible, NOT giving us a 'special word" the Lord told me to say to you thing?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think that we are essentially in agreement here!

Would you hold that the HS can and does direct us/place in our minds right verses to give to someone for the right thing to say to them for the occasion , but that would be bring to rembrance the bible, NOT giving us a 'special word" the Lord told me to say to you thing?

We are not given the direct promise to that the apostles were given to be guided into all truth...or we would be infallible.
But , that being said...we have "all truth that we need " in scripture.
Certainly there are times when the Spirit enables us to be used as a vessel unto honour...to speak forth the words of life. I also believe that if we are prayerfully and diligently pursuing holiness heb 12:14...and in the path of obedience...God will work out the providential details where we will say the exact thing that is needed to that particular person.

Think of it this way....we have this treasure in earthen vessels....that the excellency may be of God and not of us.

people in here resist the doctrines of grace, because they have not yet realized that it is exactly because God is working out his eternal purpose in redeeming the elect that there are no accidents ,or coincidences...
It is sobering to realize that we have been given a great gift, that is meant to be used to serve God, and reach others.

the books you read...or do not read...the verses you work on....the sermons you listen to, are meant to help us, and those we minister to.
 

robertguwapito

New Member
My question is why do you believe the sign gifts are still in operation?
What scriptures do you use to support your belief? Do you have personal experience with sign gifts?

Paul did not heal Timothy of his stomach ailment. He did not heal Epaphroditus, and he was not able to rid himself of the thorn in his side. Why not?

Dear Amy,

Around 26 years ago, a missionary whom our church supported gave a testimony in our local church. He was a Filipino from Metro Manila, Philippines and he narrated his unforgettable experience when he visited some Ifugao tribesmen, around more than 250 miles up north. He said that he felt compelled to share the gospel to the tribesmen even though he did not know their language. So, he spoke to them in Tagalog. After his gospel presentation, he simply prepared to go home.

As he was about to go home, some tribesmen ran after him and said, "Where did you learn our native tongue (Ifugao)? Your Ifugao is as good as ours!"

The missionary said, "Ifugao? But I spoke to you in Tagalog!"

"Tagalog? Of course we know our native tongue, and that is the language you just spoke."

In short, our missionary spoke in Tagalog; the tribesmen heard in Ifugao.

I guess this was a rare instance where the gift of tongues was in operation. Logically, there are only two conclusions which we can deduce from the incident: 1) Either our missionary was lying, or 2) Our missionary was telling the truth.

I do not think he was lying. If he was not lying, then he was telling the truth. If he was telling the truth, then gifts "did not entirely cease."

I "guess" that gifts did not entirely cease--but may occur in rare cases according to God's sovereign will. :wavey:
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
Dear Amy,

Around 26 years ago, a missionary whom our church supported gave a testimony in our local church. He was a Filipino from Metro Manila, Philippines and he narrated his unforgettable experience when he visited some Ifugao tribesmen, around more than 250 miles up north. He said that he felt compelled to share the gospel to the tribesmen even though he did not know their language. So, he spoke to them in Tagalog. After his gospel presentation, he simply prepared to go home.

As he was about to go home, some tribesmen ran after him and said, "Where did you learn our native tongue (Ifugao)? Your Ifugao is as good as ours!"

The missionary said, "Ifugao? But I spoke to you in Tagalog!"

"Tagalog? Of course we know our native tongue, and that is the language you just spoke."

In short, our missionary spoke in Tagalog; the tribesmen heard in Ifugao.

I guess this was a rare instance where the gift of tongues was in operation. Logically, there are only two conclusions which we can deduce from the incident: 1) Either our missionary was lying, or 2) Our missionary was telling the truth.

I do not think he was lying. If he was not lying, then he was telling the truth. If he was telling the truth, then gifts "did not entirely cease."

I "guess" that gifts did not entirely cease--but may occur in rare cases according to God's sovereign will. :wavey:
I have some friends who have been missionaries to other countries and one told me that what he saw was much like going back into the book of Acts. In this country I had a few experiences that when it happened the first time I told my pastor and he gave me the look like I was crazy.

One of my friends told me that he does not tell much about what happened where he was because people would most likely find it hard to believe. He is certainly not a charismatic or pentecostal.
 

DaChaser1

New Member
I have some friends who have been missionaries to other countries and one told me that what he saw was much like going back into the book of Acts. In this country I had a few experiences that when it happened the first time I told my pastor and he gave me the look like I was crazy.

One of my friends told me that he does not tell much about what happened where he was because people would most likely find it hard to believe. He is certainly not a charismatic or pentecostal.

that those stories are indeed evidence that the Lord still does confirm the truth of the Gospel to those areas NEVER have been evagelized until now, as he would establish jesus as the true messiah come unto them by the missionary, but then would go back to "business as usual", via the teaching/preaching of the Bible only...
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
that those stories are indeed evidence that the Lord still does confirm the truth of the Gospel to those areas NEVER have been evagelized until now, as he would establish jesus as the true messiah come unto them by the missionary, but then would go back to "business as usual", via the teaching/preaching of the Bible only...
What gets me is how the arm chair theologians sitting in their office can make such determination on some things they know nothing about.

It blows me away at how some determine theology on the basis of its use and abuse. Every gift can be abused with people.
 

DaChaser1

New Member
What gets me is how the arm chair theologians sitting in their office can make such determination on some things they know nothing about.

It blows me away at how some determine theology on the basis of its use and abuse. Every gift can be abused with people.

what are you doyou mean"arm chair theologians" per this OP topic?
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
what are you doyou mean"arm chair theologians" per this OP topic?
Those who sit in their easy chair and make theological decisions based on the limited experience they have without ever tossing out their ideas for examination by others.
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
Any examples as regards to this topic?
What may seem as strong here may be seen as weak by those from somewhere else. We may seem spiritual in our own eyes but to those who have gone through the fires of communist persecution may see us as a weak nation. What may be seen as tolerable here may be seen as demonic by someone else who has seen the demonic in action. What may be seen by someone in the bush as miraculous may be seen here as charismatic or pentecostal.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I have some friends who have been missionaries to other countries and one told me that what he saw was much like going back into the book of Acts. In this country I had a few experiences that when it happened the first time I told my pastor and he gave me the look like I was crazy.

One of my friends told me that he does not tell much about what happened where he was because people would most likely find it hard to believe. He is certainly not a charismatic or pentecostal.
I think it would be safer to say that in our day and age the gift of languages (the true meaning of tongues) would be more akin to the experience of William Carey who set out for India with little or no formal education, being a simple cobbler before that time.
Yet by the end of his life he had translated the Bible or parts thereof into 44 different languages. That truly is a gift. But it is not miraculous. It came through study and hard work. That is how most missionaries acquire the ability to speak another language. The same is true of Adoniram Judson who went to Burma. The only person that had been before was Carey's son, and he was martyred. Carey survived but he had to learn the language without the aid of any translator, dictionary, grammar book etc. He was the first one to "crack" the language. These were the men that went before us, hard workers, diligent in study, walking by faith, suffering untold misery, and God used them and blessed them in their ministeries.
 

DaChaser1

New Member
I think it would be safer to say that in our day and age the gift of languages (the true meaning of tongues) would be more akin to the experience of William Carey who set out for India with little or no formal education, being a simple cobbler before that time.
Yet by the end of his life he had translated the Bible or parts thereof into 44 different languages. That truly is a gift. But it is not miraculous. It came through study and hard work. That is how most missionaries acquire the ability to speak another language. The same is true of Adoniram Judson who went to Burma. The only person that had been before was Carey's son, and he was martyred. Carey survived but he had to learn the language without the aid of any translator, dictionary, grammar book etc. He was the first one to "crack" the language. These were the men that went before us, hard workers, diligent in study, walking by faith, suffering untold misery, and God used them and blessed them in their ministeries.

also would say that the story of missionary speaking in one language yet those preaching to hear it in own tongue/language would agree with the biblcal example in Acts on Pentacost, and have heard from reputable people that God has been snding forth dreams/visions now into Muslim Nations hostile to gospel!
 
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