IFB in darkness?

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

This whole concept that IFB churches in the south are extreme is still far too broad of a generalisation.

Each individual church must be viewed as a local church, not because it is a fundamental independent church in the American south.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Legalism isn't bound just to the south. I was born a yankee (hillbilly by choice!) and there were legalistic churches up there too. They just didn't survive as well as the southern ones did.

We moved south in 1974 and the folks down here hadn't even heard of the Sword of the Lord. However, in Michigan all the church folks I knew read it. But at that time, as John has stated, the Sword was a very different publication. (take it from someone who grew up reading it)

Legalism starts in the congregation. It is individuals who push it along and vote for a fire breathing, shouting, spitting preacher that says you must not be a Christian if you...... I didn't hear that stuff first from church. I heard it from my parents. It was they who said you can't: go to movies, say gosh, golly, darn, smoke tobacco, play cards (even have a deck in your house!), dance, drink alcohol, wear shorts(though the same didn't apply to my brother), read Darwin, or use a Bible that didn't have KJV stamped on it: doing so would send my poor young soul straight to hell!

Imagine my surprise when we moved south and lo and behold the DEACONS smoked out on the church steps in between Sunday school and the sermon! Boy oh boy did my parents have some explaining to do!

Those sorts of things didn't become a big deal at church until I was a teen long about 1980, maybe a bit before. What church? Why the Freewill Baptist church we attended at the time. All that skirts only stuff even when you weren't at church, well, members who didn't agree, just ignored it.

It wasn't until after this that the SOTL really changed into something I no longer recognized. So far it hasn't changed back but its better than in the days when it was a constant criticism of everyone who didn't follow the leader (especially the SBC).

It seems to me that IFB has become a catchall phrase for the condemnation of those congregations who stress congregational standards over soul liberty, who have become highly patriarchal/elder/pastor led (with little to no female leadership), but who are identified mostly by their long-haired, skirt wearing, husband dominated women folk!

What many fail to realize is that congregations, who stress congregational standards over soul liberty, who have become highly patriarchal/elder/pastor led (with little to no female leadership), but who are identified mostly by their long-haired, skirt wearing, husband dominated women folk, aren't limited to the Baptist faith in general much less IFBs. They are scattered all over every denomination.

We need to get away from the IFB label and call these folk what they are: MFC's (Misguided, Fundmental leaning, Churches).

See?

 

[John of Japan]

Good point - my very first ministry in Chester, PA was in a bus ministry.

The problem is that outside of the bus workers very few folks in most churches had to do much with the 'bus kids' and out of sight was out of mind. I can't think of many situations where a 'bus kid' became Mr or Miss Popularity in a 'regular' Sunday School class.

I know the response was quick - I happened to be on waiting to be called to dinner

Well, that's true. Many churches had/have "Junior Church" or a special service for the bus kids. Then if a bus kid trusted Christ sometimes he'd join the main service when he got older.

 

[John of Japan]

Boy, you made me feel old

Is that hard to do? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[John of Japan]

All of the IFB's I have been familiar with(in the southern part of the country) since the mid-seventies, are affiliated with "The Sword of the Lord", Chic tracts, BBC-Springfield, Hyles-Anderson, Pensacola Christian, Bob Jones U, & most recently, Heartland Bible Baptist-OKC. The latter being established by the more extreme of the denomination. IMHO, although IFB's are classified by some as a movement & not a denomination, there is enough similarity between the churches for me to classify them as a sect or denomination of Christianity. At the end of the day(& thread), we all judge based upon our own experiences with them.

Oh, come now. A denomination? The IFB movement is nothing like a denomination by any definition whatsoever. There is no administration and no legal hierarchy.

Denomination--"A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy."

(Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.)

 

[HAMel]

Denomination--"A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy."
Excepting, "A large group of....," but wait. Independents are organized. They organize under the heading of Independents. In an Independent setting the administrative and legal hierarchy is the deacon board, or the Clique, or the, "This is the way we have always done it," crowd.

Just playing here.

I am fond of Independents but just came to grips with the agenda part. I was in a SB Church for five years once and wondered what the preacher would do if the Lord put a sermon on his heart..., all the while he felt obligated to adhere with the quarterly publications from the Convention. That his sermon needed to be inline with the the Sunday School lesson.

It must be hard to be a preacher today.

 

[John of Japan]

Legalism isn't bound just to the south. I was born a yankee (hillbilly by choice!) and there were legalistic churches up there too. They just didn't survive as well as the southern ones did.

We moved south in 1974 and the folks down here hadn't even heard of the Sword of the Lord. However, in Michigan all the church folks I knew read it. But at that time, as John has stated, the Sword was a very different publication. (take it from someone who grew up reading it)

Legalism starts in the congregation. It is individuals who push it along and vote for a fire breathing, shouting, spitting preacher that says you must not be a Christian if you...... I didn't hear that stuff first from church. I heard it from my parents. It was they who said you can't: go to movies, say gosh, golly, darn, smoke tobacco, play cards (even have a deck in your house!), dance, drink alcohol, wear shorts(though the same didn't apply to my brother), read Darwin, or use a Bible that didn't have KJV stamped on it: doing so would send my poor young soul straight to hell!

Funny how folks always want to call us IFBs legalistic. But no one ever calls the Pilgrims legalistic, even though they were much stricter than we are. No one ever calls Spurgeon a legalist, even though part of his opposition to the Downgrade Movement was that many pastors went to the theater! No one ever calls Hudson Taylor a legalist, even though he strongly opposed novel reading and wouldn't allow it among CIM missionaries. No one calls R. A. Torrey a legalist even though he preached hard against theater going. Hmm. It appears that many of the great Christians of the past had high standards of personal separation, just like us IFBs. :thumbsup:

We need to get away from the IFB label and call these folk what they are: MFC's (Misguided, Fundmental leaning, Churches).

See?

Sorry. Not funny.

 

[HAMel]

Old Union Brother, I've tried about 14 times to respond to your PM but for some reason I don't seem to be able to make it work. Shouldn't be that hard.

 

[DHK]

No one ever calls Spurgeon a legalist, even though part of his opposition to the Downgrade Movement was that many pastors went to the theater!

Spurgeon a legalistic?
Spurgeon would not allow any kind of instrument (including an organ) into his church lest it take away from the true worship of the Lord.

 

[glfredrick]

Denomination--"A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy."
Excepting, "A large group of....," but wait. Independents are organized. They organize under the heading of Independents. In an Independent setting the administrative and legal hierarchy is the deacon board, or the Clique, or the, "This is the way we have always done it," crowd.

Just playing here.

I am fond of Independents but just came to grips with the agenda part. I was in a SB Church for five years once and wondered what the preacher would do if the Lord put a sermon on his heart..., all the while he felt obligated to adhere with the quarterly publications from the Convention. That his sermon needed to be inline with the the Sunday School lesson.

It must be hard to be a preacher today.

The SBC pastor didn't HAVE to do that. He chose to do that, and sad for him. An SBC church doesn't HAVE to use the SS literature either, but most do out of habit.

:thumbsup: on your take on non-denominational... I see similar, which is why I say, "anti-denominational. Are there schools, seminaries, associations of a sort, gatherings, newsletters, etc.? Then they are essentially a denomination for the sake of discussion.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Then they are essentially a denomination for the sake of discussion.

I don't think we have the freedom to redefine words just for the sake of discussion. There is no sense in which independent Baptist churches which consider themselves fundamentalists can be considered a denomination unless we redefine that word.

 

[Jerome]

Spurgeon would not allow any kind of instrument (including an organ) into his church lest it take away from the true worship of the Lord.

Charles Spurgeon, "Beware of Unbelief"

we need to escape from these horrid ruts, and wretched conventionalisms, which are rather hindrances than helps. Some very stereotyped brethren judge it to be a crime for an evangelist to sing the gospel; and as to that American organ,—dreadful! One of these days another set of conservative souls will hardly endure a service without such things

Notes, The Sword and the Trowel

Messrs. Clark and Smith, two worthy students of our college, will commence evangelistic work next August. We have engaged to find them a maintenance, that they may go through the length and breadth of the land and preach Christ. They are very lively and able speakers. Mr. Smith is a singer, and also plays upon a cornet, by which means he not only fetches in the people to the service, but interests them when they are gathered together. We have made him a present of a new silver trumpet, upon which is engraved a verse from the Psalms, “With trumpet and sound of cornet, make a joyful noise before the Lord the King.”

"Sounding out the Word of the Lord"

It chanced one evening, when there was a large gathering of friends at the Orphanage that our boys were sweetly discoursing a hymn tune upon their bells. An American organ was being played as an accompaniment and all the gathered company were singing at their best, making a rushing flood of music.
Just then I quietly hinted to our friend, Mr. Manton Smith, to put in a few notes from his silver cornet. And when he placed it to his lips and threw his soul into it, the lone man was heard above us all. Bells, organ, voices—everything seemed to yield before that one clear blast of trumpet music!

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Charles Spurgeon, "Beware of Unbelief"


Notes, The Sword and the Trowel


"Sounding out the Word of the Lord"

I notice that Spurgeon said of those instruments that they were played in College and in the Orphanage; he did not say they were played in his Church.

 

[Winman]

This whole concept that IFB churches in the south are extreme is still far too broad of a generalisation.

Each individual church must be viewed as a local church, not because it is a fundamental independent church in the American south.

I have always attended IFB churches in the South and North. I have never thought of them as legalistic, although one church did frown on women wearing pants. All of the churches I have attended frown on alcohol, not a problem for me.

My current church we do sign a pact as a member not to drink alcohol, but that is about it as far as legalism goes. We have women who wear pants, and I played guitar last Sunday for special music.

We have the Sword of the Lord at church, I have read this for years. I once saw Jack Hyles preach. I am not a big fan of Ruckman, although I don't hate the guy either. We really don't have these kinds of associations that some have spoken of here.

 

[matt wade]

My current church we do sign a pact as a member not to drink alcohol, but that is about it as far as legalism goes. We have women who wear pants, and I played guitar last Sunday for special music.

The legalism word gets thrown around be the IFB haters way too much. Let's all make sure we know what legalism is. Legalism is where there is a belief that certain conduct must be held to be saved.

In your church, Winman, I doubt that not drinking alcohol is considered a part of salvation. If it is, that legalism, but I don't think it is.

 

[Jerome]

Fred, did you notice Spurgeon saying that bells, organ, trumpet, etc. "took away from the true worship of the Lord" at the Orphanage programs and Evangelists' services?

Did you notice Spurgeon saying that it was "very stereotyped brethren" who judged use of an organ dreadful in a service?

 

[DHK]

Fred, did you notice Spurgeon saying that bells, organ, trumpet, etc. "took away from the true worship of the Lord" at the Orphanage programs and Evangelists' services?

Did you notice Spurgeon saying that it was "very stereotyped brethren" who judged use of an organ dreadful in a service?

It wasn't only Spurgeon:

John Wesley (1703-1791), a father of Methodism
"I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard."

 

[Squire Robertsson]

SNIP Then they are essentially a denomination for the sake of discussion.

Have you been reading the posts from those of us from the IFB movement? If so, you'd see we are too diverse to be considered "a denomination". Making it plural is closer to the mark. However, there is no central governing body. Much of the criticism so far does not describe the churhces here in Northern California I fellowship with.

 

[John of Japan]

John...

Thank you for sharing photos of your family and mission.

...Bob

Glad you noticed and enjoyed it.:wavey:

 

[Winman]

The legalism word gets thrown around be the IFB haters way too much. Let's all make sure we know what legalism is. Legalism is where there is a belief that certain conduct must be held to be saved.

In your church, Winman, I doubt that not drinking alcohol is considered a part of salvation. If it is, that legalism, but I don't think it is.

Oh no, it has nothing to do with salvation whatsoever.

No, it is simply an agreement we have entered into to be a good witness to our community. We want to lead godly lives to glorify God and draw people to Christ, and we do not want to be viewed as hypocrites. Unsaved people are always watching Christians to see if we live what we preach.