Improvement of the NIV

[Rippon2]

You said you only found 9 on biblegatway and I found way more than 20 from your source.

I said as early as post #17 that I was using Bible Gateway. So don't play the ignoramus with me. The subject is Titus 2:4.

I did indeed find only nine versions on Bible Gateway that had the phrase "love of mankind." They were :AMP, DLNT, ISV, HCSB, LEB, NASB, NET AND TLV. That's nine (9) bud. Put up your right hand. Make an oath to tell the truth, and nothing but the truth. Is it true Mr. Van, that I (Rippon2) said that I was using only Bible Gateway as far back as #17? Yes or no. That's right. I was using only Bible Gateway. I wasn't using any other source. Now, since I had laid down the ground rules, and made it clear, why be so immature as to say untrue things about me? Yes, it displays your childish immaturity. Since I was the one telling the truth and you engaged in mendacity, I will expect that from now on you will say things that are true and not false. You are a believer, are you not? Then act like one.

Put forth your left hand. No, not in a fist. Uncurl your digits. How many fingers do you have on that hand? No, wrong. You don't have five fingers. You have four fingers and one thumb. Now I want you to count real slow and easy. Start with your left hand. You may begin with your pinkie. Initiate the count to the number nine (9). You may count thumbs this time. All right. You have completed the task for one hand --that's five (5). That represents five translations that are known quantities. Begin counting on your right hand --starting with your pinkie again. That's right. Your pinkie finger (6), your ring finger (7), your middle finger (8) and lastly your index finger nine (9). Good job. You have got some basic arithmetic under your belt now. Congrats.

 

[Rippon2]

The NIV translates different places as if they were the same place. For example, the NIV translates Gehenna 12 times as "hell" even though hell might refer to Tartaroo (according to Greek mythology, a pit way below Hades). Compare 2 Peter 2:4 with Matthew 5:22 where two very different Greek words are both rendered as hell. Add item 34 to the list of flaws...

I checked on Bible Gateway (again Bible Gateway) regarding 2 Peter 2:4. There are more than 30 translations aside from the NIV that use the word hell in that verse. Some of the more prominent versions are : CSB, CEV, EHV, ESV, ISV, KJV, MOUNCE, NASB, NET, NKJV, NLT AND NRSV.

Looking at bible translations on Bible Gateway (that's Bible Gateway) I found the word hell in at least 16 versions aside from the NIV. Here are some of them : NRSV, NLT, NET, NCV, NASB, MOUNCE, LEB, KJV, ISV, ESV, EHV, CEV, CEB AND CSB.

I see no inconsistency here. Most use the word 'hell' in both verses. So what is your issue? Again, nothing supports your tirades.

 

[Van]

I did indeed find only nine versions on Bible Gateway that had the phrase "love of mankind." They were :AMP, DLNT, ISV, HCSB, LEB, NASB, NET AND TLV. .

On and on the falsifier posts falsehoods:
KJ21
But after the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
ASV
But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared,
AMP
But when the goodness and kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared [in human form as the Man, Jesus Christ],
BRG
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
CSB
But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love for mankind appeared,
CJB
But when the kindness and love for mankind of God our Deliverer was revealed,
DARBY
But when the kindness and love to man of our Saviour God appeared,
DLNT
But when the kindness and love-for-mankind of our Savior God appeared,
EHV
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward mankind appeared,
EXB
But when the kindness and ·love [love of humanity] of God our Savior ·was shown [appeared; was revealed],
GNV
But when that bountifulness and that love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
GW
However, when God our Savior made his kindness and love for humanity appear,
HCSB
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
ISV
In grace our Savior God appeared, to make his love for mankind clear.
PHILLIPS
For we ourselves have known what it is to be ignorant, disobedient and deceived, the slaves of various desires and pleasant feelings, while our lives were spent in malice and jealousy—we were hateful and we hated each other. But when the kindness of God our saviour and his love towards man appeared, he saved us—snip
JUB
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
KJV
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
AKJV
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
LEB
But when the kindness and love for mankind of God our Savior appeared,
MEV
But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward mankind appeared,
NOG
However, when God our Savior made his kindness and love for humanity appear,
NASB
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
NASB1995
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
NET
But “when the kindness of God our Savior and his love for mankind appeared,
NKJV
But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
NMB
But after the kindness and love of our Saviour God toward man appeared,
TLV
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared—
VOICE
But then something happened: God our Savior and His overpowering love and kindness for humankind entered our world;
WEB
But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared,
YLT
and when the kindness and the love to men of God our Saviour did appear

Note that Mr. Rippon could only find 9 out of 30, that used the phrase "love of mankind." I see love for mankind, love of humanity, and words to that effect 30 times, but did the LEB have love for mankind or love of mankind. On and on folks, pay no attention to those who deny the many flaws in the NIV.

 

[Van]

I checked on Bible Gateway (again Bible Gateway) regarding 2 Peter 2:4. There are more than 30 translations aside from the NIV that use the word hell in that verse. Some of the more prominent versions are : CSB, CEV, EHV, ESV, ISV, KJV, MOUNCE, NASB, NET, NKJV, NLT AND NRSV.

Looking at bible translations on Bible Gateway (that's Bible Gateway) I found the word hell in at least 16 versions aside from the NIV. Here are some of them : NRSV, NLT, NET, NCV, NASB, MOUNCE, LEB, KJV, ISV, ESV, EHV, CEV, CEB AND CSB.

I see no inconsistency here. Most use the word 'hell' in both verses. So what is your issue? Again, nothing supports your tirades.

Here Mr Rippon argues it is just dandy to translate two different places (Gehenna and Tartarus) as the same place (hell). This is the sort of tommy-rot up with I must put.

 

[Van]

In post #26, G5544 (cherstotes) was cited as meaning kindness. and in 9 our of 10 cases both the NASB and NIV translate it as kindness. But why not 10 out of 10? In Romans 3:12, the NIV (and a slew of other members of the flawed choice brigade) go with "good." But more than a half dozen stick with the actual meaning and render our word "kindness, and among them the NET, NRSV, and LEB.

We must ask ourselves, why does the NIV find it so hard to be consistent rather than arbitrary?

 

[Van]

Now let us turn to G5543, chrēstos also translated as "kindness" by the NIV in Romans 2:4. Actually this word has two related meanings, to fit or work well, i.e. useful and beneficial, thus better than other choices, and "manageable" i.e. less harsh and more pleasant.

In Matthew 11:30 a better translation would be "My yoke is beneficial" rather than easy in light of verses saying we will be persecuted. But the NIV is not alone, nearly every translation says easy, or comfortable, or pleasant, all missing the message. Only one parenthetically said "useful."

In Luke 5:39, the NIV actually gets it right, using "better" rather than the more common "good."

In Luke 6:35, Romans 2:4 and Ephesians 4:32 the NIV gets it right with kind or kindness.

However, in 1 Corinthians 15:33, rather than "good" character, "beneficial" character would be closer to the actual word meaning.

And in 1 Peter 2:3, the NIV should go with "the kindness of the Lord."

Doing the best we can to present the actual word meanings improves bible translation.

 

[Van]

Flaws found in the NIV

1) Isaiah 12:3 the omission of the conjunction should read, "therefore"
2) Mark 1:41 Jesus was indignant should read, "moved with anger."
3) John 1:16 should read, "...grace after grace."
4) John 21:5 friends should read, "children."
5) Acts of the Apostles 13:50 "leaders" should be italicized to indicate an addition to the text.
6) Romans 3:25 sacrifice of atonement should read, "propitiatory shelter."
7) 1 Corinthians 16:13 "be courageous" should read, "act like men."
8) Ephesians 2:3 deserving of wrath should read, "children of wrath."
9) Colossians 1:28 the omission of "every man" (or every person) reduces the force of the teaching that the gospel is understandable to every person.
10) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 to be saved should read, "for salvation."
11) 2 Thessalonians 3:6 who is idle should read, "who leads an undisciplined life"
12) 1 Timothy 3:16 appeared in the flesh should read, "revealed in the flesh."
13) Titus 3:4 love should read, "love for mankind."
14) Hebrews 10:14 sacrifice should read, "offering."
15) James 2:5 to be rich in faith should read, "yet rich in faith."
16) 1 Peter 4:6 those who are now dead should read, "those who are dead."
17) 1 John 2:2 atoning sacrifice should read, "propitiation."
18) 1 John 4:10 atoning sacrifice should read, "propitiation."
19) Revelation 13:8; 17:8 from the creation should read, "since the foundation." And Matthew 25:34 and Hebrews 4:3 since the creation should read "since the foundation."
20) Revelation 22:21 be with God's people should read, "be with all."
21) 1 Samuel 15:19 the Lord should read "the voice of the Lord."
22) 1 Samuel 15:20 the Lord should read "the voice of the Lord."
23) 1 Samuel 15:22 the Lord should read "the voice of the Lord."
24) Philemon 1:6 the verse should read as follows: "I pray that your participation in the faith may be effective in deepening your understanding of every blessing that belongs to all of you in Christ Jesus."
25) 1 Corinthians 14:29 should read "Let two or three prophets speak, and the others evaluate." The NIV added "carefully" and "what is said."
26) 1 Corinthians 6:19 "your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you" should read "your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in all of you.
27) Matthew 3:11 should read, ""As for me, I baptize all of you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize some of you with the Holy Spirit and others with fire.
28) Matthew 11:12 should read, ""Since the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of the heavens has been forcefully sought, and forceful people are laying hold of it."
29) 1 Corinthians 2:14 does not say all things that come from the Spirit, therefore the verse should read: The person without the Spirit does not accept some of the things of the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit,
30) Titus 2:11 "Offer" has been added which alters the message, the verse should read: For the grace of God, who provides salvation, has appeared to all people.
31) 1 Corinthians 3:1: Siblings I could not speak to you as people with the Spirit, but as to people without the Spirit, as babes in Christ who have yet to learn from the Spirit.
32) Acts of the Apostles 13:48: When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord and as many as accepted direction to eternal life believed.
33) Revelation 14:3, redeemed should read purchased.
34) 2 Peter 2:4, "hell" should be translated "Tartarus."
35) Romans 12:10, "love" should be translated "sibling love"
36) Acts of the Apostles 28:2, unusual kindness should be "love for humankind."
37) 1 Peter 2:3 should read "kindness of the Lord."


Examples 1, 9, 13, 21, 22, 23, and 35 document omission of words or parts of words.
Examples 5, 15, 16, 25, 29 and 30 document addition of words.
Examples 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 17, 18, 19, 20, 26, 33, 34 and 37 document replacement of the inspired word with a different word or different words.
Example 24 and 28 documents a translation devoid of meaning, just an array of disconnected phrases.
Example 27 clarifies the confusion produced by the Greek plural "you."
Examples 31 and 32 present an unambiguous correction to the NIV translations.

When translators "add" words or phrases, "omit" words or phrases, or translate words or phrases outside of the historical-grammatical meaning unnecessarily, in order to make doctrine driven choices, they are presenting a flawed translation in my opinion. All translations have flaws, the product of fallible people, but the NIV flaws seem abundant to me.

 

[Van]

Let us return to item 35 above and Romans 12:10, "Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves."

Here the word translated by the NIV as love is G5360 meaning sibling love, and the word translated "Be devoted" is G5387 meaning cherishing ones relatives. Thus cherish as family one another with sibling love is the idea.

But let us delve further into the abyss. As G5387 only appears here in Romans 12:10, and several translations also render it as "be devoted" we will give the NIV a pass in missing the nuance of kindred affection.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:9 "love for one another" should read "sibling love" to include the idea fellow Christians are family.

In Hebrews 13:1, "Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters" should read "let sibling love continue."

In 1 Peter 1:22, the NIV reads, "Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart." A more accurate rending might read, "Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a unfeigned sibling love, fervently love one another from your pure heart."

In 2 Peter 1:7 the NIV reads, "and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love." Here both the kindred affection and sacrificial love meanings are left untranslated. A better rendering is "and to godliness, sibling love; and to sibling love sacrificial love." Thus the truth Peter learned in John 21 would be presented, not hidden!

 

[Van]

Now let us turn to the Greek word "phileō (G5368). Not only the NIV but just about every translation renders it "love" and therefore uses the same English word or more than one Greek word, i.e both agape and phileo. To create more transparency "phileo" could be translated as "fond" rather than love.

Here is an example of the benefit of drawing a distinction:
John 21:15-17 (NIV edited in red)
When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I am fond of you. Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I am fond of you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, are you fond of me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Are you fond of me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I am fond of you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.

Note that Jesus desires Peter's sacrificial love, but uses Peter just as he was, knowing that Peter will add to his sibling love for Jesus, his sacrificial love, because one day Peter will put our his hands and go where he does not want to go. Praise God!

 

[Van]

I see I need to revisit item #1, Isaiah 12:3 where the NIV omits the conjunction "therefore" which weakens the linkage between the Lord being our salvation and "therefore" we can draw water (essential sustenance) from the fount of salvation. Upon further review, the perceived weakness is inconsequential (or nonexistent as others have pointed out) so my next update of the list will omit the weak omission.

 

[Van]

Flaws found in the NIV

1) 1 Thessalonians 4:9, love for one another should read "sibling love."
2) Mark 1:41 Jesus was indignant should read, "moved with anger."
3) John 1:16 should read, "...grace after grace."
4) John 21:5 friends should read, "children."
5) Acts of the Apostles 13:50 "leaders" should be italicized to indicate an addition to the text.
6) Romans 3:25 sacrifice of atonement should read, "propitiatory shelter."
7) 1 Corinthians 16:13 "be courageous" should read, "act like men."
8) Ephesians 2:3 deserving of wrath should read, "children of wrath."
9) Colossians 1:28 the omission of "every man" (or every person) reduces the force of the teaching that the gospel is understandable to every person.
10) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 to be saved should read, "for salvation."
11) 2 Thessalonians 3:6 who is idle should read, "who leads an undisciplined life"
12) 1 Timothy 3:16 appeared in the flesh should read, "revealed in the flesh."
13) Titus 3:4 love should read, "love for mankind."
14) Hebrews 10:14 sacrifice should read, "offering."
15) James 2:5 to be rich in faith should read, "yet rich in faith."
16) 1 Peter 4:6 those who are now dead should read, "those who are dead."
17) 1 John 2:2 atoning sacrifice should read, "propitiation."
18) 1 John 4:10 atoning sacrifice should read, "propitiation."
19) Revelation 13:8; 17:8 from the creation should read, "since the foundation." And Matthew 25:34 and Hebrews 4:3 since the creation should read "since the foundation."
20) Revelation 22:21 be with God's people should read, "be with all."
21) 1 Samuel 15:19 the Lord should read "the voice of the Lord."
22) 1 Samuel 15:20 the Lord should read "the voice of the Lord."
23) 1 Samuel 15:22 the Lord should read "the voice of the Lord."
24) Philemon 1:6 the verse should read as follows: "I pray that your participation in the faith may be effective in deepening your understanding of every blessing that belongs to all of you in Christ Jesus."
25) 1 Corinthians 14:29 should read "Let two or three prophets speak, and the others evaluate." The NIV added "carefully" and "what is said."
26) 1 Corinthians 6:19 "your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you" should read "your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in all of you.
27) Matthew 3:11 should read, ""As for me, I baptize all of you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize some of you with the Holy Spirit and others with fire.
28) Matthew 11:12 should read, ""Since the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of the heavens has been forcefully sought, and forceful people are laying hold of it."
29) 1 Corinthians 2:14 does not say all things that come from the Spirit, therefore the verse should read: The person without the Spirit does not accept some of the things of the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit,
30) Titus 2:11 "Offer" has been added which alters the message, the verse should read: For the grace of God, who provides salvation, has appeared to all people.
31) 1 Corinthians 3:1: Siblings I could not speak to you as people with the Spirit, but as to people without the Spirit, as babes in Christ who have yet to learn from the Spirit.
32) Acts of the Apostles 13:48: When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord and as many as accepted direction to eternal life believed.
33) Revelation 14:3, redeemed should read purchased.
34) 2 Peter 2:4, "hell" should be translated "Tartarus."
35) Romans 12:10, "love" should be translated "sibling love"
36) Acts of the Apostles 28:2, unusual kindness should be "love for humankind."
37) 1 Peter 2:3 should read "kindness of the Lord."


Examples 9, 13, 21, 22, 23, and 35 document omission of words or parts of words.
Examples 5, 15, 16, 25, 29 and 30 document addition of words.
Examples 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 17, 18, 19, 20, 26, 33, 34 and 37 document replacement of the inspired word with a different word or different words.
Example 24 and 28 documents a translation devoid of meaning, just an array of disconnected phrases.
Example 27 clarifies the confusion produced by the Greek plural "you."
Examples 31 and 32 present an unambiguous correction to the NIV translations.

When translators "add" words or phrases, "omit" words or phrases, or translate words or phrases outside of the historical-grammatical meaning unnecessarily, in order to make doctrine driven choices, they are presenting a flawed translation in my opinion. All translations have flaws, the product of fallible people, but the NIV flaws seem abundant to me.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Translate monogenes as unique or one of a kind, not one and only

why would you say this? The Greek μονογενής, does indeed mean "one and only", which is what the English "unique" means. Collins English dictionary says this on "one and only", "incomparable, unique". on μονογενής, the Greek lexicon of BDAG says, "one and only, only, unique, one of its kind or class". the KJV renders μονογενής in Luke 7:12, 8:42, and 9:38, by "only"

 

[Yeshua1]

why would you say this? The Greek μονογενής, does indeed mean "one and only", which is what the English "unique" means. Collins English dictionary says this on "one and only", "incomparable, unique". on μονογενής, the Greek lexicon of BDAG says, "one and only, only, unique, one of its kind or class". the KJV renders μονογενής in Luke 7:12, 8:42, and 9:38, by "only"

This is where we get into should it be translated as begotten or not?

 

[SavedByGrace]

This is where we get into should it be translated as begotten or not?

the correct Greek word for "only-begotten" is, "μονογέννητος", John uses "μονογενής". There is NO "begetting" in the word "μονογενής", this defination is "theological"

 

[Van]

why would you say this? The Greek μονογενής, does indeed mean "one and only", which is what the English "unique" means. Collins English dictionary says this on "one and only", "incomparable, unique". on μονογενής, the Greek lexicon of BDAG says, "one and only, only, unique, one of its kind or class". the KJV renders μονογενής in Luke 7:12, 8:42, and 9:38, by "only"

Hi, thanks for posting an on topic post.

The problem with "only Son" is that Jesus is not the only son of God. Adam was a son of God, and every born anew believer is a child (son) of God. Thus unique or one of a kind are superior to "one and only" when referring to Jesus as the Son of God.

John 3:16 (NIV) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

John 3:16, "one and only" should read "one of a kind." God has more than one "son."

 

[SavedByGrace]

Hi, thanks for posting an on topic post.

The problem with "only Son" is that Jesus is not the only son of God. Adam was a son of God, and every born anew believer is a child (son) of God. Thus unique or one of a kind are superior to "one and only" when referring to Jesus as the Son of God.

sure, I myself prefer "unique", or "incomparable", as there is no person ever who can in any way compare with the Lord Jesus Christ! The point I made is that the Greek allows for "one and only", which is "unique".

 

[Van]

sure, I myself prefer "unique", or "incomparable", as there is no person ever who can in any way compare with the Lord Jesus Christ! The point I made is that the Greek allows for "one and only", which is "unique".

The Greek word has a range of historical meanings, including "only." But in the context of referring to Jesus, unique or one of a kind best conveys the message in my opinion. Jesus is not the one and only son of God.

 

[Van]

SavedByGrace made an excellent point, monogenes does mean only in Luke 7:12, Luke 8:42, and Luke 9:38.

However, when the reference is to Jesus, unique or one of a kind is a superior translation choice. (See John 1:14, John 1:18, John 3:16, John 3:18 and 1 John 4:9.)

Lastly in Hebrews 11:17 Abraham had more than one son, so unique or one of a kind is a better choice.

 

[SavedByGrace]

SavedByGrace made an excellent point, monogenes does mean only in Luke 7:12, Luke 8:42, and Luke 9:38.

However, when the reference is to Jesus, unique or one of a kind is a superior translation choice. (See John 1:14, John 1:18, John 3:16, John 3:18 and 1 John 4:9.)

Lastly in Hebrews 11:17 Abraham had more than one son, so unique or one of a kind is a better choice.

Hi Van, no, all I was pointing out was, that in the KJV it is translated by "only" in a few places. However, if this is what Luke, for example wanted to show, then he would have used "μονος", and not "μονογενής", which is to show that more than a simple "only" is meant. The KJV gets a few things very wrong!

 

[Van]

Hi Van, no, all I was pointing out was, that in the KJV it is translated by "only" in a few places. However, if this is what Luke, for example wanted to show, then he would have used "μονος", and not "μονογενής", which is to show that more than a simple "only" is meant. The KJV gets a few things very wrong!

If I understand, your view is "one and only" best translates the three Luke usages of monogenes?