Imputed Righteousness

[Charlie24]

They did not have the ability to hear because they were not of God

In John 8:13 we know this conversation was between Christ and the Pharisees.

This must be established to understand what is being said to who.

Christ tells them they are of their father the devil.

Then tells them they will not believe the truth because they are not of God.

BF, this means they did not desire the truth of God, they did not covet the things of God, they only cared for their position and power ofver the people.

They could not hear the truth because they had their own truth.

 

[Charlie24]

In John 8:13 we know this conversation was between Christ and the Pharisees.

This must be established to understand what is being said to who.

Christ tells them they are of their father the devil.

Then tells them they will not believe the truth because they are not of God.

BF, this means they did not desire the truth of God, they did not covet the things of God, they only cared for their position and power ofver the people.

They could not hear the truth because they had their own truth.

This is not difficult to understand, once you take the twisting of God's word out the way.

Those who created this theory are just as guilty as those Pharisees in John 8.

 

[Tea]

Christ is telling them "you are of your father the devil" truth cannot be understood without faith.

Which demonstrates their enslavement to sin. Only the Son can free them from it.

John 8:34-36 (ESV)
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Christ is telling them "you are of your father the devil" truth cannot be understood without faith.

Of course, even a lost person can understand truth. That doesn't mean that are going embrace it unless they have been to the Son by the Father.

They could not hear because they didn't want to hear.

Once again, that isn't what the verse says. They DO NOT hear. They lack a specific capacity do something.

 

[Brightfame52]

In John 8:13 we know this conversation was between Christ and the Pharisees.

This must be established to understand what is being said to who.

Christ tells them they are of their father the devil.

Then tells them they will not believe the truth because they are not of God.

BF, this means they did not desire the truth of God, they did not covet the things of God, they only cared for their position and power ofver the people.

They could not hear the truth because they had their own truth.

Jesus Christ tells us who hears the word of God Jn 847 otherwise you can not hear Jn 8:43. That's why they don't desire the things of God . You can't desire what you can't desire

 

[Charlie24]

Which demonstrates their enslavement to sin. Only the Son can free them from it.

John 8:34-36 (ESV)
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.


Of course, even a lost person can understand truth. That doesn't mean that are going embrace it unless they have been to the Son by the Father.



Once again, that isn't what the verse says. They DO NOT hear. They lack a specific capacity do something.

They could not hear, they would not hear, and I have explained why.

Christ was showing up the Pharisees for who they were, frauds, not interested in the things of God, which was standing right in front of them.

They did not hear because they were not of God, they were imposters of God's leadership of Israel.

 

[Charlie24]

They could not hear, they would not hear, and I have explained why.

Christ was showing up the Pharisees for who they were, frauds, not interested in the things of God, which was standing right in front of them.

They did not hear because they were not of God, they were imposters of God's leadership of Israel.

In the broader view of John 8, there are imposters of the faith all around us, false teachers.

They are not of God, they are of their father the devil.

 

[Tea]

They could not hear, they would not hear, and I have explained why.

The text does not allow for the idea that they had the neutral capacity to either listen or turn a deaf ear. You are either born of God or you are not.

 

[Charlie24]

The text does not allow for the idea that they had the neutral capacity to either listen or turn a deaf ear. You are either born of God or you are not.

Oh yes it does! It implies they could have believed if their hearts were in the right place for the things of God.

You're free to believe whatever you like, God doesn't force you to believe it, how could I possibly do it?

 

[37818]

You are either born of God or you are not.

Hearing God's word precedes being born of God. Romans 1:16, . . . of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . .

 

[Tea]

Oh yes it does! It implies they could have believed if their hearts were in the right place for the things of God.

But that's exactly the problem, Charlie. Too many folks see implications that just aren't there. The command to repent and believe in the Gospel does not imply that every person can obey it. Divine intervention and the grace of God are absolutely necessary to have your heart in the right place to begin with.

 

[Tea]

Hearing God's word precedes being born of God. Romans 1:16, . . . of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . .

What the verse does NOT say:
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you are not of God is that you do not hear them.

What the verse DOES say:
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.

 

[Charlie24]

But that's exactly the problem, Charlie. Too many folks see implications that just aren't there. The command to repent and believe in the Gospel does not imply that every person can obey it. Divine intervention and the grace of God are absolutely necessary to have your heart in the right place to begin with.

Rom. 10:13

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

It's the Calvinists that have twisted this verse to mean that only those God has chosen to believe will actually call on Him.

But in reality, outside the horrific lies of Calvinism, God has said, "come unto me all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

The opportunity to enter into that rest is there for the taking of all mankind, But the condition God has laid down is faith in His Son.

Not just any faith, but faith from the heart that is real and heartfelt.

 

[37818]

The command to repent and believe in the Gospel does not imply that every person can obey it.

Mark 1:15, . . . The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Ephesians 1:12-13, . . . That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, . . . .

 

[37818]

What the verse does NOT say:
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you are not of God is that you do not hear them.

What the verse DOES say:
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.

Do you deny Psalm 19:4? Quoted in Romans 10:17-18? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

 

[Tea]

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

It's the Calvinists that have twisted this verse to mean that only those God has chosen to believe will actually call on Him.

What Calvinists actually understand is that the natural person would never call out to Him by their own volition. Thus, as a testament to His mercy, He grants the ability to call upon Him to some, while leaving the rest to their own devices.

 

[Tea]

Do you deny Psalm 19:4? Quoted in Romans 10:17-18? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

I can confidently support that verse without going against what I've previously stated. Hearing is one thing, but hearing and then responding positively to what you hear is quite another.

 

[Charlie24]

What Calvinists actually understand is that the natural person would never call out to Him by their own volition. Thus, as a testament to His mercy, He grants the ability to call upon Him to some, while leaving the rest to their own devices.

The calling on God comes from the person who hears the Gospel, that is what breaks the barrier of depravity.

If the person see's no need for Christ, for whatever reason, they have rejected Christ and the wrath of God abides on them.

If the person see's a need for Christ and believes the Gospel, they are granted the righteousness of Christ and are born-again.

No where in Scripture will you find where God makes that decision for man, that's where the theory enters into the picture.

 

[Silverhair]

The situation would be conditional if you were the one initiating the action; however, it would not be conditional if the action occurs due to an external force.

Conditional is conditional either way Tea.

IF I push you off the bridge into the water you will get wet

IF you jump of the bridge into the water you will get wet

 

[Tea]

The calling on God comes from the person who hears the Gospel, that is what breaks the barrier of depravity.

The divine act of regeneration is what shatters the barrier of depravity; only then can someone who hears the Gospel truly call out to God. What you're claiming is traditionalism that began in Rome and, unfortunately, has made its way into Evangelical circles.

The truth is that the Son must liberate those who are bound by sin. Only after this liberation can they have the inherent desire to seek God within their new nature.

Matthew 1:21 (ESV)
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

Jesus said that WILL save His people from their sins. Do you believe that what He promised is merely hypothetical and that His intentions can be obstructed by the will of the creature?

 

[Tea]

Conditional is conditional either way Tea.

IF I push you off the bridge into the water you will get wet

IF you jump of the bridge into the water you will get wet

Do you really want to make it a conditional statement by saying that you can overpower and prevent God from pushing you off the bridge and falling into the water?