In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

[examiningcalvinism]

JD

JD,

I decided to check back in, and I saw your post. The verses you mentioned are on the website. You can look them up. http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/Examine.html

Nevertheless, I persisted through the tiresome ramblings of RF trying to pass off Foreknowledge as Determinism, while patiently waiting for a forthright answer to my "in the Father" question derived from the OP, only to never receive a direct answer while having to wade through irrelevant Mayor analogies. For now, I've documented the sad event on the Examining Calvinism Blog.
http://examiningcalvinism.blogspot.com/

 

[Blammo]

Can I choose to do what God knows I will not do? Prove it.

No, the answer to your question is no, and everyone here knows it. However, the fact that God will not be suprised by anything we choose to do does not mean He caused our choices, it means He knew what our choices would be before we made them. Our choices can not and will not change from what God, in His perfect knowledge, has already foreseen. You seem to be afraid that, if God does not cause our choices, He can not know what we will choose.

God can, and does, cause certain things to occur in accordance with His perfect plan. He also allows certain things to occur, because He can use them in accordance with His perfect plan, or they have no effect on His perfect plan. He sees the beginning to the end. He does not have to wait and see what happens, and He does not need to look into the future to see what He will need to do. Everything is predetermined, predestined, foreknown, because He has already seen it. That does not mean He is the cause of all events, though He is the creator of all things. The reason sin happens is not because God created it, it is because God allowed it.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[J.D.]

JD,

I decided to check back in, and I saw your post. The verses you mentioned are on the website. You can look them up. http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/Examine.html

Nevertheless, I persisted through the tiresome ramblings of RF trying to pass off Foreknowledge as Determinism, while patiently waiting for a forthright answer to my "in the Father" question derived from the OP, only to never receive a direct answer while having to wade through irrelevant Mayor analogies. For now, I've documented the sad event on the Examining Calvinism Blog.
http://examiningcalvinism.blogspot.com/

I hope I'm not wrongfully impugning your motives, but I ain't goin for the bait on this. If you want to interact here, then interact here. Visiting forums and stirring something up is a cheap and easy way to increase traffic on your web site.

As I said, there's nothing new about the corporate theory of election, which is basically what you're espousing.

Allan or reformedbeliever or someone along the way used the word gobbledygook to describe your posts. I agree. But let's dress it up and call it sophistry. You're theory of primary and secondary election is just a fancy way of saying that God chose those who would in time choose Christ. This was Arminius' argument four hundred years ago. I didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JD

JD,

You missed the boat for several reasons.

1) I'm not interested in increasing traffic on my website. I have no advertising. What benefit would it do me? The truth is that you've asked if I was aware of certain verses and therefore I pointed you to the articles on my website.

2) In terms of the "corporate" aspect of Predestination, I agreed with Allan that we are individually elect in Christ, individually foreknown in Christ by name, but that a corporate aspect may be seen in the fact that the Body of Christ is also predestined for all that which God the Father has sovereignly planned to bless it with, in Christ.

3) The primary/secondary issue deals not with Arminian Election, but with Calvinistic election. For if you believe that Eph 1:4 means that "the elect" are chosen "to be" in Christ, then logically speaking, it inevitably sets up a primary election in the Father with a secondary election in the Son, because if "the elect" are chosen to become Christ, then in whom were these chosen, in order to receive the secondary election to be chosen in Christ? That question is the whole point of my visit to this website. I've documented the responses on the Blog.

http://examiningcalvinism.blogspot.com/

Best wishes in Christ,
Adios

 

[J.D.]

JD,

You missed the boat for several reasons.

1) I'm not interested in increasing traffic on my website. I have no advertising. What benefit would it do me? The truth is that you've asked if I was aware of certain verses and therefore I pointed you to the articles on my website.

2) In terms of the "corporate" aspect of Predestination, I agreed with Allan that we are individually elect in Christ, individually foreknown in Christ by name, but that a corporate aspect may be seen in the fact that the Body of Christ is also predestined for all that which God the Father has sovereignly planned to bless it with, in Christ.

3) The primary/secondary issue deals not with Arminian Election, but with Calvinistic election. For if you believe that Eph 1:4 means that "the elect" are chosen "to be" in Christ, then logically speaking, it inevitably sets up a primary election in the Father with a secondary election in the Son, because if "the elect" are chosen to become Christ, then in whom were these chosen, in order to receive the secondary election to be chosen in Christ? That question is the whole point of my visit to this website. I've documented the responses on the Blog.

http://examiningcalvinism.blogspot.com/

Best wishes in Christ,
Adios

Well I don't have time to go to your web sight and search for your comments on the verses. A reply would have been nice.

So you don't have ads. Fair enough. Thanks for coming back to answer me. But don't you have a book for sale?

 

[reformedbeliever]

No, the answer to your question is no, and everyone here knows it. However, the fact that God will not be suprised by anything we choose to do does not mean He caused our choices, it means He knew what our choices would be before we made them. Our choices can not and will not change from what God, in His perfect knowledge, has already foreseen. You seem to be afraid that, if God does not cause our choices, He can not know what we will choose.

God can, and does, cause certain things to occur in accordance with His perfect plan. He also allows certain things to occur, because He can use them in accordance with His perfect plan, or they have no effect on His perfect plan. He sees the beginning to the end. He does not have to wait and see what happens, and He does not need to look into the future to see what He will need to do. Everything is predetermined, predestined, foreknown, because He has already seen it. That does not mean He is the cause of all events, though He is the creator of all things. The reason sin happens is not because God created it, it is because God allowed it.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Hello Blammo. Nice to *see* you again. I never said that God directly causes sin. I even used the story of Joseph to show how God can use evil for His good purposes. Thanks for your reply however.

 

[reformedbeliever]

JD,

I decided to check back in, and I saw your post. The verses you mentioned are on the website. You can look them up. http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/Examine.html

Nevertheless, I persisted through the tiresome ramblings of RF trying to pass off Foreknowledge as Determinism, while patiently waiting for a forthright answer to my "in the Father" question derived from the OP, only to never receive a direct answer while having to wade through irrelevant Mayor analogies. For now, I've documented the sad event on the Examining Calvinism Blog.
http://examiningcalvinism.blogspot.com/

If your view of foreknowledge is not determinism.... what is it?

 

[Blammo]

Hello Blammo. Nice to *see* you again. I never said that God directly causes sin. I even used the story of Joseph to show how God can use evil for His good purposes. Thanks for your reply however.

How do you explain this statement of yours?

"I understand that God is present in the future.... way after we have chosen what we choose. But I am in the present... and His perfect knowlege will still cause me to choose the way He knows I will choose. Changes nothing."

I agree with you that we do not suprise God with our choices, but that does not mean God causes them.

God's perfect knowledge means He already knows what I will choose, His knowledge does not cause me to choose the way He knows I will choose.

Do you see the difference... yet?

God's knowledge of our choices means He knows them, not that He causes them.

 

[reformedbeliever]

How do you explain this statement of yours?

"I understand that God is present in the future.... way after we have chosen what we choose. But I am in the present... and His perfect knowlege will still cause me to choose the way He knows I will choose. Changes nothing."

I agree with you that we do not suprise God with our choices, but that does not mean God causes them.

God's perfect knowledge means He already knows what I will choose, His knowledge does not cause me to choose the way He knows I will choose.

Do you see the difference... yet?

God's knowledge of our choices means He knows them, not that He causes them.

Hi again Blammo. God can and does effect people's choices through His providence. If you look up providence, if you have not already, you will see that it involves quite a lot of different ways that God *causes* things to happen. God can use individuals or the environment or laws of society etc.... even satan in the case of Job... to cause what ever it is that is in accordance with His plans. God caused Joseph's brothers to do what they did. He did it indirectly through His sovereign providence, in a way that does not make Him the author of their sins. I hope this explains it. I do not believe that God directly causes anyone to sin or even tempts them. He does not have to....... we do that very well upon our own.

 

[Jarthur001]

But of him are ye in Christ

JD,

You missed the boat for several reasons.

1) I'm not interested in increasing traffic on my website. I have no advertising. What benefit would it do me? The truth is that you've asked if I was aware of certain verses and therefore I pointed you to the articles on my website.

2) In terms of the "corporate" aspect of Predestination, I agreed with Allan that we are individually elect in Christ, individually foreknown in Christ by name, but that a corporate aspect may be seen in the fact that the Body of Christ is also predestined for all that which God the Father has sovereignly planned to bless it with, in Christ.

3) The primary/secondary issue deals not with Arminian Election, but with Calvinistic election. For if you believe that Eph 1:4 means that "the elect" are chosen "to be" in Christ, then logically speaking, it inevitably sets up a primary election in the Father with a secondary election in the Son, because if "the elect" are chosen to become Christ, then in whom were these chosen, in order to receive the secondary election to be chosen in Christ? That question is the whole point of my visit to this website. I've documented the responses on the Blog.

http://examiningcalvinism.blogspot.com/

Best wishes in Christ,
Adios

But of him are ye in Christ

If it's not to late, I would stop the printing of that book.

It is just bad doctrine to say that God chose us “in Him” and mean we are the ones who place ourselves “in Him”. We did not chose to be born, but we still was born. In 1 Cor 15:22 we are told that we fell into sin and death because we are “in Adam”

1Cr 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Just like our natural birth we do not place ourself in the new birth. Salvation is by God. Salvation is Gods plan and in His hands. It is Christ that choses His bride.

1Cr 1:27-29
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

----->>>That no flesh should glory in his presence.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

But of him are ye in Christ


God is the one who decides who becomes "in Christ," and he is the one who then puts us in Christ by his will and power. Therefore divine election is a selection of individuals for salvation.

But of him are ye In Christ...James

 

[examiningcalvinism]

To JArthur

James,

And just when you think that the conversation is dead.

You wrote: "It is just bad doctrine to say that God chose us “in Him” and mean we are the ones who place ourselves 'in Him'."

Then explain Ephesians 1:13:

Ephesians 1:13: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

Arminianism:
Step 1) Hears Gospel
Step 2) Believes Gospel
Step 3) Sealed in Christ
Step 4) Born Again, New Creature, Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, made one spirit with God. (1Cor 6:16-17)

Hence: when we believe in Christ, we become sealed in Christ.

Calvinism:
Step 1) Born again in Christ
Step 2) Hears Gospel
Step 3) Believes Gospel
Step 4) Sealed in Christ

Step 1 and Step 4 shows just how disfunctional Calvinism is.

 

[Jarthur001]

James,

And just when you think that the conversation is dead.

You wrote: "It is just bad doctrine to say that God chose us “in Him” and mean we are the ones who place ourselves 'in Him'."

Then explain Ephesians 1:13:

Ephesians 1:13: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

Arminianism:
Step 1) Hears Gospel
Step 2) Believes Gospel
Step 3) Sealed in Christ

Hence: when we believe in Christ, we become sealed in Christ.

Calvinism:
Step 1) Born again in Christ
Step 2) Hears Gospel
Step 3) Believes Gospel
Step 4) Sealed in Christ

Step 1 and Step 4 shows just how disfunctional Calvinism is.

But of him are ye in Christ

Why in the world would you say this?

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The understanding is not there to hear...to believe..until..The new birth comes. right?

Just as it says in John 8....

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

James

Of course, it is by Him that we are in Christ, because it is by grace that are we saved through faith. He initiated it in terms of seeking, drawing, knocking, convicting, pricking, piercing, opening hearts to respond to the Gospel. He made the provision of salvation by way of the cross. We have redemption because of what HE did.

I love how Calvin describes our part: “Now it may be asked how men receive the salvation offered to them by the hand of God? I reply, by faith. Hence he concludes that here is nothing of our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all praise, it follows that salvation is not of us. … When, on man’s side, he places the only way of receiving salvation in faith alone, he rejects all other means on which men are accustomed to rely. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ.” (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, p.144, emphasis mine)

That is brilliant. We don't come knocking on the door of His heart. He comes knocking on the door of our heart. This is why we have no reason to boast before God: This is why Romans 3:27 says: “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.”

Here is my writeup on 1 Cor 1:30. Feel free to check it out.

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Paul/1Cor1_30.html

In terms of John 8, also recognize v.42. "If God was your father (as they claimed), then you would love Me." God was not their Father, as they claimed. Had God been their father, like Nathaniel, then like him, they would have received Christ. These people rejected the Father (Isaiah 65:2), rejected John the Baptist. These were not Jesus' sheep because they were not the Father's sheep either.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

James

I'm not going to stay up until 2:00 am again.

I recommend that you post your exegesis on Ephesians 1:13
I recommend that you also explain how being, allegedly, chosen "to become" in Christ does not logicially presuppose a primary election in the Father, as I insist that it logically would require.

Best wishes in Christ,
Richard

 

[Jarthur001]

examiningcalvinism
Of course, it is by Him that we are in Christ, because it is by grace that are we saved through faith. He initiated it in terms of seeking, drawing, knocking, convicting, pricking, piercing, opening hearts to respond to the Gospel. He made the provision of salvation by way of the cross. We have redemption because of what HE did.

And...who does the chosing to place the person "in Christ?"

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

That no flesh should glory in his presence.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

I love how Calvin describes our part: “Now it may be asked how men receive the salvation offered to them by the hand of God? I reply, by faith. Hence he concludes that here is nothing of our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all praise, it follows that salvation is not of us. … When, on man’s side, he places the only way of receiving salvation in faith alone, he rejects all other means on which men are accustomed to rely. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ.” (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, p.144, emphasis mine)

If you are posting calvin for me..your wasting your time.
I know what he held. Being you do not, would you like for me to show you?

Here is my writeup on 1 Cor 1:30. Feel free to check it out.

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Paul/1Cor1_30.html

Hold that thought. I'll take you up on your site next month..Lord willing.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

James

You wrote: "And...who does the chosing to place the person "in Christ?"

We're going in circles. See Eph 1:13: hears, believes, sealed.

In terms of Calvin, he believes that "faith" is the product of regeneration in Christ. Hence, he stumbles over Romans 10:17 which says that faith comes from the hearing of the word of Christ. I've already listed above why regeneration in Christ, prior to being sealed in Christ, is a dysfunctional mess.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Good night

Good night.

 

[J.D.]

Here is someone's explanation of Eph 1:4 that I can actually understand:

(Gill)

and this choice is made in Christ; and the persons chosen are chosen
in him, and by being chosen they come to be in him; for this refers not to
their openly being in him at conversion, as believers, but to their secretly
being in him before time. Christ, as Mediator, is the object of election
himself; and all the elect were chosen in him as their head, in whose hands their persons, grace, and glory are, and so are safe and secure in him: the Arabic version renders it, “by him”; not as the meritorious cause, for Christ's merits are not the cause of election, though they are of redemption and salvation; but as the means, in order to the end: the Ethiopic veion renders it, “to him”; to salvation by him, and to the obtaining of his glory; as if he and his benefits, being the end of this choice, were intended; which
was made

before the foundation of the world: and that it was so early, is certain, from
the love of God to his people, which this is the effect of, and which is an
everlasting love; and from the covenant which was made with Christ from
everlasting, on account of these chosen ones, when Christ was set up as the
head and representative of them; and from the provision of all spiritual
blessings for them in it, which proceeds according to this choice; and from
the preparation of a kingdom for them from the foundation of the world;
and from the nature of God's decrees, which are eternal; for no new will, or
act of will, can arise in God, or any decree be made by him, which was not
from eternity: God's foreknowledge is eternal, and so is his decree, and is
no other than himself decreeing.​

​

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[Jarthur001]

Here is someone's explanation of Eph 1:4 that I can actually understand:

(Gill)

​

​

Thanks JD..

I posted the "by Him" a few pages back, with no reply. Its been said before the Greek tells how silly this view is.

 

[J.D.]

And some thoughts on being sealed from Dr. Voluminous:

whereas the believing Ephesians, in
common, were sealed; and the Spirit of God continues still as a sealer of
his people, and as an earnest and pledge of their inheritance until the day of
redemption; but it is to be understood of the confirming, certifying, and
assuring the saints, as to their interest in the favour of God, and in the
blessings of grace, of every kind, and their right and title to the heavenly
glory; (see Gill on “<470122>2 Corinthians 1:22”), and the seal of these things is
not circumcision, nor baptism, nor the Lord's supper, nor even the graces
of the Spirit; but the Spirit himself, who witnesses to the spirits of believers
the truth of these things, and that as a “spirit of promise”: so called, both
because he is the Spirit promised, as the Syriac and Ethiopic versions
render it, whom the Father and Christ had promised, and who was sent by
them; and because he usually seals, or certifies believers of the truth of the
above things, by opening and applying a word of promise to them: and
which he does also, as the “Holy” Spirit; for this sealing work of his leaves
a greater impress of holiness upon the soul, and engages more to acts of
holiness; wherefore the doctrine of assurance is no licentious doctrine; no
persons are so holy as those who are truly possessed of that grace; and as
for such who pretend unto it, and live in sin, it is a certain thing that they in
reality know nothing of it.