In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

[Benjamin]

Thanks Richard, I just finished reading the tread and enjoyed it, couldn't wait to get to the end and see how thing were shaping up, no big surprise that you wouldn't put up with the nonsense around here, anyway, got your point, hoped to join in, but seeing it going in the usual direction bow out too, thanks again.

 

[Jarthur001]

Wow, I'm glad I stayed out of this one. My advice for the new member is to just speak of his/her own opinions and stop pretending that he/she has a handle on other people's perspectives, especially Calvin himself. I'm not sure what Calvin's view of the OP's question would have been, but since he predated the divine decrees controversy it is highly unlikely that there's any data in his writings available that would answer the question beyond sheer speculation.

My suspicion is that this person only knows English (thus, is handicapped by the translations thereof) has not even read the requisite secondary sources in English that aptly discuss Calvin (i.e., Muller, Steinmetz) and does not know how Calvin's contemporaries understood him. His website will probably be enjoyed by many on this board who can't type Calvin in a sentence without also typing Servetus (BTW how many Anabaptists did Zwingli put to death?), but it seems to perpetuate the caricature that all too many people love to promote while purposely ignoring the good history that's out there on the subject.


BJ

PS-Many Lutherans would be shocked to hear that they are a denomination of "Calvinistic, Reformed theology."

Indeed, you are right again.

en is a preposition that unchanging variable unlike eis which means "toward" or "into" or "unto" which has a sense of action going "toward" the subject. Also it is unlike ek which means "of" or "from" or "out of" that gives the changing variable of leaveing the subject.

If we were to look at a passages that shows en using many words, we may better understand the meaning. John 1 is one place that most people use to understand it better, but there is a passage right here in the book of Eph that helps just as well.

Eph 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

Eph 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Eph 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

One should get a better understanding of the word after reading this passage.

Now if we reread one verse in chapter 1 it becomes more clear.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in/by/through him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:



In Christ...James

 

[webdog]

James,

In your post on Ephesians, you've listed everything that God has sovereignly bestowed in Christ. If I want those things, I must become in Christ.

Either I am predestined TO BECOME in Christ, or.... I am predestined in Christ, meaning that I have a predestined inheritance once I become sealed "in Christ."

Either I am chosen TO BECOME in Christ, or.... I am chosen IN CHRIST, speaking of what blessings of Adoption that I can look forward to in Christ.

I have yet to see this answered. I'm curious of the reformed responces to this...

 

[reformedbeliever]

I have yet to see this answered. I'm curious of the reformed responces to this...

No problem at all. I told Richard also. We are chosen in Christ, just as shown in Ephesians 1. You apparently didn't read my post. Again, we are chosen in Christ. Richard thinks somehow that must be against what Ephesians 1:13 says.... but not at all. We were chosen in Christ.... the Holy Spirit opens our spiritual eys and hearts to believe, we believe and are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Just because we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, does not mean we were eternally justified... we have to believe. All that the Father gives Jesus will believe. None of His chosen without fail, will not believe. Would anyone deny a rescue? That is what the Holy Spirit does at regeneration, He rescues us.... and we receive.

Does this answer your question webdog?

 

[webdog]

I was with you up to this...

All that the Father gives Jesus will believe. None of His chosen without fail, will not believe.

What do you mean "none of His chosen without fail, will not believe"? On one hand you say we are chosen IN CHRIST (what Scripture teaches), then here you allude to those who are chosen are chosen to believe (what Scripture never says). Please clarify...

 

[reformedbeliever]

Thanks Richard, I just finished reading the tread and enjoyed it, couldn't wait to get to the end and see how thing were shaping up, no big surprise that you wouldn't put up with the nonsense around here, anyway, got your point, hoped to join in, but seeing it going in the usual direction bow out too, thanks again.

Is it nonsense to debate Richard? I don't understand. What is non sense? To point out the faults in his theology? That is part of debate.

Maybe you would like to take up where he left off? I welcome it. Unless of course you think debate is nonsense.

Richard did not like my answers, so he left. My answers did not fit into his argument, so he left. How about you taking up since you are so eager to see where this leads. You can start by answering the questions we gave Richard, which he tried his best to talk around.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I was with you up to this...

What do you mean "none of His chosen without fail, will not believe"? On one hand you say we are chosen IN CHRIST (what Scripture teaches), then here you allude to those who are chosen are chosen to believe (what Scripture never says). Please clarify...

All of those He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world, will believe. What is hard to understand about that? Am I making myself clear?

Jesus said all that the Father gives me will come to me..... I agree. Those that the Father chose in Christ are given to Christ, and they will come or believe.

 

[webdog]

All of those He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world, will believe. What is hard to understand about that? Am I making myself clear?

You are making yourself clear, but you are dead wrong. We are NOT chosen to become in Christ...to believe in Christ! We are chosen IN CHRIST! The moment we ARE IN CHRIST we become those chosen!

 

[reformedbeliever]

You are making yourself clear, but you are dead wrong. We are NOT chosen to become in Christ...to believe in Christ! We are chosen IN CHRIST! The moment we ARE IN CHRIST we become those chosen!

I didn't say we were chosen to become in Christ..... that is what you are saying.

If you want you can disagree with what Ephesians 1:4 says........

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

now go on to read verse 5

5. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

He chose us in Christ, we were predestined to adoption as sons, through Jesus Christ to Himself, and it was because of His will, not ours.

 

[webdog]

I didn't say we were chosen to become in Christ..... that is what you are saying.

You said it right here...

All of those He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world, will believe.

This is not Scriptual. When we are grafted in Christ we are chosen. We are NOT chosen to believe or become grafted. Our sins are nailed to that cross with Christ. We are nailed to the cross with Christ IF we believe. Before the foundation of the world, Christ was slain. It should be very easy to see.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Quote:
I didn't say we were chosen to become in Christ..... that is what you are saying.

You said it right here...

Quote:

All of those He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world, will believe.

This is not Scriptual. When we are grafted in Christ we are chosen

.

Scripture please.

We are NOT chosen to believe or become grafted.

Scripture please.

Our sins are nailed to that cross with Christ. We are nailed to the cross with Christ IF we believe. Before the foundation of the world, Christ was slain. It should be very easy to see.

No problem with that.

 

[webdog]

The Scripture is the very Scripture you are trying to use to show we are chosen in Christ to believe!

 

[reformedbeliever]

The Scripture is the very Scripture you are trying to use to show we are chosen in Christ to believe!

C'mon webdog. You can do better than that. Are you trying to change scripture? Are you trying to say that Ephesians 1:4 says; because you believe, just as He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be Holy and blameless, in love, 5. because we beleive, He predestined us to become? Get real webdog........ give a decent argument for your side, and don't try to say i'm saying something I'm not..... that does not do well for your side.

 

[webdog]

C'mon webdog. You can do better than that. Are you trying to change scripture? Are you trying to say that Ephesians 1:4 says; because you believe, just as He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be Holy and blameless, in love, 5. because we beleive, He predestined us to become? Get real webdog........ give a decent argument for your side, and don't try to say i'm saying something I'm not..... that does not do well for your side.

On the contrary, your argument has more holes than swiss cheese. Heres' what the text says...
Eph 1:4 for He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love

Before the foundation of the world...this same 'before the foundation' that the Lamb was slain, IN HIM we are chosen! Take the text at face value for once. It says NOTHING about being chosen to believe in Him.

 

[reformedbeliever]

On the contrary, your argument has more holes than swiss cheese. Heres' what the text says...
Eph 1:4 for He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love

Before the foundation of the world...this same 'before the foundation' that the Lamb was slain, IN HIM we are chosen! Take the text at face value for once. It says NOTHING about being chosen to believe in Him.

I did not say that Ephesians 1 says we are chosen to believe. I said that Jesus said all that the Father gives me will come. Thats John 6:37

What I did say is that we are chosen in Him. Go back and read.

All that God has chosen will have to hear the Gospel and receive Jesus, in other words believe. Do you think that we were justified when God chose us in Christ? If so, that is eternal justification and is false.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Webdog, I already know what you believe. You have stated that you believe that God choses people He saw would believe. I have already proven that position to be fatalism....... see my response to Richard. If God based salvation or election upon prescience, then when men are born and go through life, their fate is set by what God saw. If God saw them not believe, then they will not believe, they have no chance to believe.

Calvinist believe that God sets His love upon those He has chosen, who were headed to hell, and in time He saves them. That is not fatalism, not mere fate, but God acting in time and accomplishing what He in eternity past chose to do. All men are headed to hell, and left to themselves will go there. God in HIs mercy saves some. He does not save all of them. If you have a problem with that.... take it up with God.

Either way.... election viewed through arminianism or calvinism, we have the problem of God allowing men to come into existence knowing that some would not believe and go to hell. That is our problem, not God's. He is the Creator, and has the right to dispose of His creation as He sees fit.

 

[webdog]

Webdog, I already know what you believe. You have stated that you believe that God choses people He saw would believe.

That's not entirely true. I believe God chooses those who are "in Christ". "Seeing" doesn't encompass omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience. It's not declaration from a specific point in time past, and it's not looking into the future from a specific point in time past. It's a lot more than our finite minds can handle.

 

[reformedbeliever]

That's not entirely true. I believe God chooses those who are "in Christ". "Seeing" doesn't encompass omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience. It's not declaration from a specific point in time past, and it's not looking into the future from a specific point in time past. It's a lot more than our finite minds can handle.

:applause: I'm sorry, but do you know how ridiculous that sounds? What do you believe webdog. I've asked that before but you remain elusive.

 

[webdog]

:applause: I'm sorry, but do you know how ridiculous that sounds? What do you believe webdog. I've asked that before but you remain elusive.

As I have stated before, I believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and omnitemporal God. Our soteriology is looked at from a finite stance, while soteriology is looked at by God from an infinite stance. I think you know this already from the threads on God being outside of time, but are only looking to demean me. I believe I have even asked you at what specific point in "eternity past" did God elect you. I don't recall your answer.

 

[Jarthur001]

That's not entirely true. I believe God chooses those who are "in Christ". "Seeing" doesn't encompass omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience. It's not declaration from a specific point in time past, and it's not looking into the future from a specific point in time past. It's a lot more than our finite minds can handle.

I have heard it all now.