In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

James

James,

If you two (Allan and James) need rest, that's understandable and we can resume whenever. But I made a flowchart that reflects what I believe the Bible is saying, and you can use that to formulate your sequence of questions. If you would use a similar flowchart to document your own timeline, that would also help.

 

This may be off the subject but...

This may be off the subject but...

if God has an alleged, "eternal flock of the Father" who alone has predetermined to save, and presuming that Job is in this flock, then why did Satan go to God and complain about a hedge of protection around Job? For if Calvinism was true, wouldn't the real "hedge" have been Unconditional Election? And if Job had Irresistible Grace, why would Satan have raised charges about what Job would do if Satan did this or that to him? After all, if he had Irresistible Grace, and if Satan knew it, then nothing he did to him could stand up to a grace that is irresistible.

 

James

James,

I'm going over your response to the flowchart right now. I was hoping that the flowchart would serve as a good launching pad for discussion between us, and I'm glad to see it bearing fruit. On a side note to your last question, the answer is Romans 8:28-29. 8:28 is addressing those who are in Christ, that love God and are called according to His purpose (the calling in relation to what Christians are called to do in Christ). Essentially, then, these in Christ, whom God has foreknown, He has predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, calling, justfication, glorication. In this way, the "to be" follows what is in Christ. I just wanted to let you know that I'm online and addressing the flowchart now, and I may flowchart what I believe Calvinism teaches. Allow 15 minutes to respond.

 

James

James,

For clarity, blue = Examining Calvinism, red = JArthur

1) Christ seeks/draws/calls Matt 22:14 lost in Adam ->
2) lost in Adam hears Gospel ->
3) lost in Adam gets faith from Gospel Rom 10:17 -> (Prevenient Grace of Illumination, whereby the Holy Spirit convicts consciences, pierces hearts, pricks hearts (Acts 26:14) and opens hearts to believe (Acts 16:14), as opposed to changes hearts with a new heart which doesn't come until after you are sealed in Chirst per Eph 1:13.)
4) lost in Adam believes in Christ ->
5) lost in Adam gets sealed in Christ Eph 1:13 ->
6) sealed in Christ gets redeemed -> How can one be sealed, before they are redeemed? Are you not owned 1st??

(As I’m sure that you are aware, Arminianism and 4-Point Calvinism teaches a Universal Purchase but not Universal Redemption. Redemption is in Christ. Romans 8:1 teaches that in Christ, there is now no longer any condemnation. So in other words, you must become sealed in Christ in order to access redemption in Christ. I'm aware that 5-Pointers believe that they were redeemed at Calvary, before they were ever in Christ, which is a point that I obviously dispute on the basis of Romans 8:1.)

7) redeemed gets regenerated -> This has to be a 1st. I have never seen a free-willer place believers being redeemed before regen.

8) regenerated is made born again -> Here is another 1st from a freewiller. Ren and born again two dif things. I don't have a problem with them being two, but most free-willers will. However...we need to move 7-8 up to 1 and 2.

(I differentiate the Prevenient Grace of Illumination from the Regenerative Grace in Christ. The Prevenient Grace of Illumination is factored into Step 3. I have Regeneration after we are sealed in Christ on the basis of Eph 1:13)

9)born again becomes new creature -> 3 steps in the new birth. Not even a Calvinist believes this.

10) new creature gets new heart and new spirit -> How can you have life, without a spirit? Would not the spirit come before the birth?

Ezekiel 36:26 says that you receive a new heart and a new spirit, which I infer as being the product of the new birth, in regeneration.

10) new creature becomes adopted calling Jehovah "Abba Father" ->
11) Adopted becomes one spirit with Christ in the Body of Christ as Bride of Christ 1Cor 6:16-17 ->
12) Bride of Christ made spotless and holy in blood of Lamb Eph 5:27->
13) Bride of Christ is foreknown in Christ -> ?????? what is this?

(Romans 8:28-29. Verse 28 speaks of those who are in Christ, who love God and are called according to His purpose, meaning the Christian Calling according the eternal purpose that each Christian has in Christ. [More on this below] These who are in Christ, whom God did foreknow, He has predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, to receive their Calling in Christ, Justification and Glorification)

14)Foreknown in Christ is predestined for conformity to Christ, a calling to serve, Justification and Glorification Rom 8:29-30 ->
15)The Called serves Christ in capacity predetermined in Christ from eternity past, 2 Tim 1:9, which is eternally bestowed in the Beloved Eph 1:5-6. The Called? In point one you say men are called. This is before salvation. So, whoever is called serves? This has to be bad wording on your part.

(There are two Calls. There is the call to live IN Christ (Matthew 22:14), and there is a call to live FOR Christ. (Romans 8:28) We are called to live IN Christ when we receive the offer of salvation. We are called to live FOR Christ when we receive God’s Calling to do that which God has purposed for us in Christ, such as when a person is called to the Ministry, or called to become a Pastor. First you are called to become a Christian and then you are called to serve, that is, for edification of the Body of Christ and also for evangelization of the lost.)

 

in addition

in addition...

The lost in Adam are given: Atoning Grace, Prevenient Grace, Common Grace, General Call (in no particular order, this is just a summation)

Those sealed in Christ are gvien: Redemption, Regenerative Grace, New Birth (Born Again), New Creature with a new heart and a new spirit, The Indwelling, Conformity to the Image of Christ, the Christian Calling according to our unique purpose in Christ, Justification, Glorification. (in no particular order, this is just a summation on what's in this category)

(By the way, I'm fully aware of your pending question, but I've delayed answering it until the flowchart is resolved, because once the flowchart is resolved, that will become a big step towards reconciling the issues of your question.)

 

Reformed Believer

I believe that I've answered it.

 

Reformed Believer

1. Did God allow some of mankind to come into existence knowing that they would never believe? Yes or no

2. If God knows they would never believe, can they believe? yes or no

The "rich man" had an offer and opportunity which constitutes having a chance, as already stated.

3. If you answer yes to number 2, did God allow some of mankind to come into existence without a chance to believe? No, see above. He knows they will not believe so they can not believe. yes or no. I'll bet you will avoid that.

This goes right back to you thinking that foreknowledge is determinism. Have many ways do you wish for me to explain this to you?

 

James

James,

You wrote: “what does ‘in Christ’ mean other than a phrase saying they are saved?”

Only when you become sealed in Christ, do you become “saved,” and receive all that God the Father has bestowed in Christ, namely, redemption (Rom 8:1), Regeneration, Born Again, The Indwelling, Eternal Life, the Christian Calling, ect., and I've listed these in no particular order.

You wrote: “Do you elect me as mayor after i'm "in Office"?”

Rather than to address an irrelevent analogy, I will say that the Bible teaches that God the Father elects you TO adoption on the basis on the basis of your UNION with His Son (i.e. chosen in Christ), which union occurs when you are sealed in His Body as “one spirit” with Him. (1 Cor 6:16-17) Having become in Christ, you were foreknown in Christ, as per Romans 8:28-29. That passage is addressed to those in Christ, and it is those who are in Christ that were foreknown in Him, and predestined to all that God the Father has in store for Christians.

You wrote: “I have chosen you out of the world”

This is a quote from John 17 in terms of Jesus electing His disciples.

You wrote: “Now I ask you again....Does God chose us AFTER we choose to believe and are "IN CHRIST"??? Does not the Bible teach us the Christ chooses us 1st? Does not the Bible teach us that the choosing wa before we were born?”

After we choose to believe in Christ, we are sealed in Christ. Ephesians 1:13 states: “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise...” When you are sealed in Christ, you become part of the Body of Christ. When you become part of the Body of Christ, you become part of an Elect body that the Father has chosen for adoption, holiness, salvation, eternal life, ect.

You wrote: “This God is weak in that He cannot stop man by changing what He has already foresaw. Freewill determines all things in this view.”

1st Corinthians 10:13 states: “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.” This verse invalidates Determinism, and you have characterized God as "weak," solely on the basis that He chooses not to determine every choice of man, though He could do this, and is able to do so. God is able to give everyone irresistible grace, but instead, He gives prevenient grace when He evangelizes those who are the old creature in Adam. If I had my choice, it would be that God would give everyone irresistible grace, as you would likely agree, but God’s ways are not Richard's or James' ways.

Now my question for you:

Question to James: Do you believe that God the Father chose you in Himself from before the foundation of the world, in an eternal flock of the Father, in order that you may be given and chosen to be in His Son? (Yes/No)

Question to James: If Ephesians 1:4 meant that God the Father chose "the elect" to be in Christ, then in whom were these elect chosen in order to be qualified for election in the Son? The purpose of this question is to determine whether Calvinism truly does teach a primary election in the Father, with a resulting secondary election in the Son. I hope that Saturday will bring me a direct answer to this question.

 

Reformed Believer

If you want to know about God being the Sovereign Potter over the clay, then explain it to me from the perspective of God's own words at Jeremiah 18:1-13:

Jeremiah 18:1-13
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.’ But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’ “Therefore thus says the LORD, ‘Ask now among the nations, who ever heard the like of this?The virgin of Israel has done a most appalling thing.’”

Did God measure up to your standards?