In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer:

I'm convinced that once you endeavor to create an Analogy of your understanding of foreknowledge, that the light will turn on. :jesus:

 

James

James,

Instead of playing a shell game, Let me flowchart what I believe and you can critique it and modify it to reflect what you believe:

Christ seeks/draws/calls Matt 22:14 lost in Adam -> lost in Adam hears Gospel -> lost in Adam gets faith from Gospel Rom 10:17 -> lost in Adam believes in Christ -> lost in Adam gets sealed in Christ Eph 1:13 -> sealed in Christ gets redeemed -> redeemed gets regenerated -> regenerated is made born again -> born again becomes new creature -> new creature gets new heart and new spirit -> new creature becomes adopted calling Jehovah "Abba Father" -> Adopted becomes one spirit with Christ in the Body of Christ as Bride of Christ 1Cor 6:16-17 -> Bride of Christ made spotless and holy in blood of Lamb Eph 5:27-> Bride of Christ is foreknown in Christ -> Foreknown in Christ is predestined for conformity to Christ, a calling to serve, Justification and Glorification Rom 8:29-30 -> The Called serves Christ in capacity predetermined in Christ from eternity past, 2 Tim 1:9, which is eternally bestowed in the Beloved Eph 1:5-6.

That was a lot of work. Sorry it took so long.

 

James and Allan

You two must be running on caffeine.

 

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer:

I'm still waiting for your analogy of Foreknowledge.

 

Reforemd Believer

Reformed Believer,

I know that you are not being short. This concept on both sides has been philosophized for centuries before we were ever born, but I will present some analogies that might be helpful.

BTW, Yes, Peter mentioned that we are born again through the Gospel. (1 Peter 1:23)

Differentiation: What I understand is that the difference between the two systems is that God's knowledge in all instances either causes its objects or is caused by its objects. Having said this, neither constitutes an analogy.

Calvinism: Analogy by R.C. Sproul: God's foreknowledge is like a transcript, that is, a transcript of His eternal decree, that is, foreknowing what was determined. Arminains object that this is determinism, rather than foreknowledge.

Arminianism: Obviously, the Calvinist perspective of Arminian understanding on foreknowledge is a "crystall ball." Arminians have objected to this because it characterizes an eternal God like a temporal man, which is a reasonable objection. Rather, an Arminian would have you picture an Historian. Historians do not cause history. Rather, history causes what the Historian records. For an analogy, a Historian's knowledge of the past, no more determines the past, than God's knowledge of the future, determines the future.

It was my hope, that in your attempt to create an analogy, that you would come to realize that Calvinism cannot account for genuine, non-deterministic foreknowledge.

 

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer:

Obviously God is the One who caused us to become born again. But is that saying what Calvinism requires? What Calvinism requires is that God caused you to become born again, preemptively & involuntarily & unconsciously & altogether unilaterally, so that in this regeneration with a new heart that is conceived, "the elect" may use it to irresistibly repent, as in Irresistible Grace. That's quite a bit to have to force into that verse, don't you think?

As for the analogy, God is not Historian? Thanks for clearing that up for me My analogy is to show how an Historian's knowledge of the past, does not determine the past, just as God's knowledge of the future, does not determine the future.

Jerry Vines explains: http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/RollCall/Vines.html

 

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer:

You wrote: “God is not a human historian.”

That’s twice you’ve said this, and twice I’ve agreed. My point is merely that knowing history doesn’t determine history. Thus, God may know the future without necessarily causing the future. Obviously, God uses His foreknowledge to establish His plans, i.e. Acts 2:23.

You wrote: “Does He cause everyone to be born again?”

Of course not. I made a flow-chart, in the post to James. If you have a chance to review it, you will see at-what-point a person is made born again. A person is made born when they are "sealed in Christ." Calvinism agrees. However, Calvinism differs by suggesting that certain men are preemptively made in Christ (pre-faith in Christ) in order to access what is necessary to irresistibly believe. However, I argue that this is in conflict with Ephesians 1:13. You are welcome to explain that verse to me, and tell me why it does not conflict with Calvinism.

You wrote: “God in His perfect knowledge, allowed mankind to come into existence knowing full well that they would never receive the Gospel.”

Only Open Theists would deny God “perfect knowledge.”

You wrote: “Richard, I could not care less what Jerry, or John, or R.C. or anyone else says.”

I cited Vines and Sproul in an attempt to present to comparative analogies, both for your benefit and perhaps others who may enjoy seeing their thoughts on the matter.

 

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer:

Perfect Knowledge = Omniscience.

By God's perfect Knowledge, He foreknew that the "rich man" of Luke 16:19-31 would reject Him, in terms of rejecting Him under the covenant of Israel. Yet, God let the "rich man" be born into this world. Then comes your question: Does that mean that the "rich man" never had an opportunity to be saved? Of course he had an opportunity to be saved, and rejected it, and this God foreknew. If the man had not rejected his opportunity, then God's perfect foreknowledge would have reflected that. The problem is that you have a pair of glasses, that whenever you read foreknowledge, you see Determinism.

However, you glossed over my post about Ephesians 1:13. It says that only when you believe, are you sealed in Chirst. However, Calvinism teaches that those who are sealed in Christ, believe, and hence Calvinism has it backwards. Would you care to comment on Ephesians 1:13?

Ephesians 1:13-14: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory."