In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

[reformedbeliever]

Richard, I have a propostion for you. Why don't you just admit that Almight Sovereign God is sovereign in all things, including salvation? Give Him the glory and credit that He alone deserves. Stop with the man centered theology. :jesus:

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer:

I'm convinced that once you endeavor to create an Analogy of your understanding of foreknowledge, that the light will turn on. :jesus:

 

[Jarthur001]

Reformed Believer:

I'm convinced that once you endeavor to create an Analogy of your understanding of foreknowledge, that the light will turn on. :jesus:

please!! :BangHead:

 

[Jarthur001]

To James,

I have a 2:06 AM post to you from last night. If you would read over that, and then I hope to resume a discussion, but I'm hoping that you can stick with a conversation of just a couple points at a time, in order to avoid trading thesis'.

Welcome to my world.

I was up till 3am..and got back up at 6:10. Pretty busy right now.
I have replied today. It was a quick short one. This was to address all that hold to your "in Christ" driven doctrine. So I repost, being no one has addressed it. I'm sure its because it was so short, and not a book.

Much of what was posted was just a bias statement with no support. I'll not address it.
However, if being this is key to your side, lets dig in.

"In Christ" What does it mean? I fail to see where it changes any thing.

Lets limit this to one blessing found in Eph 1. All others would apply the same. Holy has been talked about before, so lets address it.

Your Saying God choose us, after we are "in Christ" to be set apart.

I chose to be saved. To me, this sets me apart from those that are not saved. For if freewill is right, it is I that chooses ...so then I choose to be set apart from those who are in the world...set apart into Christ. It would be my chooseing. Your in the world...or your in Christ.

Now...Your saying after I choose to be set apart to salvation, ..and I am In Christ...that God elects us to be set apart. I'm I following you right?

 

[Allan]

Alan,

In terms of my "gobbadly gook," consider this statement and let me know whether it meets with your approval.

Calvinistic Election is overthrown by the fact that Jesus stated: “no one comes to the Father but through Me.” (John 14:6) The “to be” Election of Calvinism inevitably places one in the Father with the result that these in Himself are chosen “to be” in Christ. To suggest that we have an election “to be” in Christ, undermines Christ Himself when He stands as our Mediator before the Father. After all, why would we need to have Jesus as our Mediator if we were secretly plugged in with the Father from all eternity?

What is the election of the Body of Christ but the election of so many units in Him, which is tantamount to the same thing as individuals? Indeed, God foreknew each individual in Christ by name. The corporate aspect is simply that God has predestined that this Body of Christ (in union with Christ, as per 1st Corinthians 6:16-17), will receive all the glory that God has in store for it.

Your gobbldy gook was in the sense you were trying to put so many loaded guns in to your holsters at once it basically was a conglomerated mess (Pee Wee Herman - Rambo style). I'll answer some more latter, right now I'been up for 38 hours striaght and I'm exhausted.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

James

James,

Instead of playing a shell game, Let me flowchart what I believe and you can critique it and modify it to reflect what you believe:

Christ seeks/draws/calls Matt 22:14 lost in Adam -> lost in Adam hears Gospel -> lost in Adam gets faith from Gospel Rom 10:17 -> lost in Adam believes in Christ -> lost in Adam gets sealed in Christ Eph 1:13 -> sealed in Christ gets redeemed -> redeemed gets regenerated -> regenerated is made born again -> born again becomes new creature -> new creature gets new heart and new spirit -> new creature becomes adopted calling Jehovah "Abba Father" -> Adopted becomes one spirit with Christ in the Body of Christ as Bride of Christ 1Cor 6:16-17 -> Bride of Christ made spotless and holy in blood of Lamb Eph 5:27-> Bride of Christ is foreknown in Christ -> Foreknown in Christ is predestined for conformity to Christ, a calling to serve, Justification and Glorification Rom 8:29-30 -> The Called serves Christ in capacity predetermined in Christ from eternity past, 2 Tim 1:9, which is eternally bestowed in the Beloved Eph 1:5-6.

That was a lot of work. Sorry it took so long.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

James and Allan

You two must be running on caffeine.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer:

I'm still waiting for your analogy of Foreknowledge.

 

[ituttut]

I see what you are saying..... but as you know, theology is God study. How can we be of someone, when what we are doing is reading various authors, to compare what their theology (God study) is compared to ours. I do see your point. I don't think any of us think we are of anything but our Lord Jesus Christ. That is all I was saying. Thank you brother.

Amen as we read and study His Word we see that some's theology is that of man as it is not fully in agreement of what we find in His Word, but some is, as it is the Word of God. I know what you are saying Christian friend for we are of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed Believer:

I'm still waiting for your analogy of Foreknowledge.

My analogy is that God is the first cause. Men's actions start with God's perfect knowledge. God knows. Men act according to God's perfect knowledge. Men will always choose in a manner that is consistent with God's decreed will. How hard is that to understand Richard? If I repeat it several more times will it be easier to understand? I'm not being short with you, I just don't know what part of it you do not understand.

God knows a man will receive Him because He decrees it. The knowledge starts with God, not man's actions. The man is born, hears the gospel, receives the gospel, and is saved. Its that simple.

As God always initiates any covenent with man, as God always initiates saving some of humanity, I believe it is overlord and vassal is that correct?...... He initiates salvation by causing a man to be born again.

You know....... Peter did mention something about God causing us to be born again didn't he?

edited to try to improve my horrible spelling and grammar

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Reforemd Believer

Reformed Believer,

I know that you are not being short. This concept on both sides has been philosophized for centuries before we were ever born, but I will present some analogies that might be helpful.

BTW, Yes, Peter mentioned that we are born again through the Gospel. (1 Peter 1:23)

Differentiation: What I understand is that the difference between the two systems is that God's knowledge in all instances either causes its objects or is caused by its objects. Having said this, neither constitutes an analogy.

Calvinism: Analogy by R.C. Sproul: God's foreknowledge is like a transcript, that is, a transcript of His eternal decree, that is, foreknowing what was determined. Arminains object that this is determinism, rather than foreknowledge.

Arminianism: Obviously, the Calvinist perspective of Arminian understanding on foreknowledge is a "crystall ball." Arminians have objected to this because it characterizes an eternal God like a temporal man, which is a reasonable objection. Rather, an Arminian would have you picture an Historian. Historians do not cause history. Rather, history causes what the Historian records. For an analogy, a Historian's knowledge of the past, no more determines the past, than God's knowledge of the future, determines the future.

It was my hope, that in your attempt to create an analogy, that you would come to realize that Calvinism cannot account for genuine, non-deterministic foreknowledge.

 

[Allan]

You two must be running on caffeine.

I haven't slept for 38 hours so you can say I'm running on Caffine.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Richard says;

BTW, Yes, Peter mentioned that we are born again through the Gospel. (1 Peter 1:23)

Oh, didn't you overlook the 1 Peter 1:3 verse which says God the Father caused us to be born again? God said it, I didn't. I just agree.

Calvinism: Analogy by R.C. Sproul: God's foreknowledge is like a transcript, that is, a transcript of His eternal decree, that is, foreknowing what was determined. Arminains object that this is determinism, rather than foreknowledge.

Very good brother R.C.! I agree, if we use human analogy.

Arminianism: Obviously, the Calvinist perspective of Arminian understanding on foreknowledge is a "crystall ball." Arminians have objected to this because it characterizes an eternal God like a temporal man, which is a reasonable objection. Rather, an Arminian would have you picture an Historian. Historians do not cause history. Rather, history causes what the Historian records. For an analogy, a Historian's knowledge of the past, no more determines the past, than God's knowledge of the future, determines the future.

Very poor analogy. A Historian is not God Almighty!
This is just more man centered theology. Poor God. He has to wait to see what man will do before He can act.

That does not sound at all like an overlord to a vassal.

It was my hope, that in your attempt to create an analogy, you would grasp the Arminian perspective, and realize that Calvinism cannot account for genuine, non-deterministic foreknowledge.

It was my hope that you would realize how faulty your analogy is... and come to understand that God is the greater power over man. He sets the rules. He does not have to follow man. Nor does He want to share His glory with man.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer:

Obviously God is the One who caused us to become born again. But is that saying what Calvinism requires? What Calvinism requires is that God caused you to become born again, preemptively & involuntarily & unconsciously & altogether unilaterally, so that in this regeneration with a new heart that is conceived, "the elect" may use it to irresistibly repent, as in Irresistible Grace. That's quite a bit to have to force into that verse, don't you think?

As for the analogy, God is not Historian? Thanks for clearing that up for me My analogy is to show how an Historian's knowledge of the past, does not determine the past, just as God's knowledge of the future, does not determine the future.

Jerry Vines explains: http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/RollCall/Vines.html

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed Believer:

Obviously God is the One who caused us to become born again. But is that saying what Calvinism requires? What Calvinism requires is that God caused you to become born again, preemptively & involuntarily & unconsciously & altogether unilaterally, so that in this regeneration with a new heart that is conceived, "the elect" may use it to irresistibly repent, as in Irresistible Grace. That's quite a bit to have to force into that verse, don't you think?

As for the analogy, God is not Historian? Thanks for clearing that up for me My analogy is to show how an Historian's knowledge of the past, does not determine the past, just as God's knowledge of the future, does not determine the future.

Jerry Vines explains: http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/RollCall/Vines.html

Very false analogy. God is not a human historian. God is God. God's perfect knowledge does in fact determine the future. You are the first I've had dispute that. Most Arminians agree that God's foreknowledge which they call prescience, is the reason God elects, and man will always be held to that. They would not deny that God's prescience of them is the reason they choose. What they would deny is that the knowledge starts with God. God was in the beginning and there was no other. Everything starts with God. I'm sorry you can't see that.

If you say obviously God caused us to be born again, does He cause everyone to be born again. You are not consistent my friend.

Maybe you can come up with another analogy. Now, since you seem to think that God's prescience is the reason for election. Can one whom He foresaw *NOT* believe have a chance to come to faith? I'll bet you talk all around that.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Jerry Vines explains

Richard, I could not care less what Jerry, or John, or R.C. or anyone else says. I've not read Calvin, R.C., Pink, or any other reformed or not theologians. I've come to my beliefs from the Bible. Yes I've had some formal education from Oklahoma Baptist University... and yes most of the authors of my text books were reformed. I still came to my belief simply from the scriptures.

What I have asked you is a very simple question from a very simple man. How about a simple answer? Reformed theologians and free will theologians have the same problem..... God in His perfect knowledge, allowed mankind to come into existence knowing fully well that they would never receive the Gospel. Try to deny it!

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer:

You wrote: “God is not a human historian.”

That’s twice you’ve said this, and twice I’ve agreed. My point is merely that knowing history doesn’t determine history. Thus, God may know the future without necessarily causing the future. Obviously, God uses His foreknowledge to establish His plans, i.e. Acts 2:23.

You wrote: “Does He cause everyone to be born again?”

Of course not. I made a flow-chart, in the post to James. If you have a chance to review it, you will see at-what-point a person is made born again. A person is made born when they are "sealed in Christ." Calvinism agrees. However, Calvinism differs by suggesting that certain men are preemptively made in Christ (pre-faith in Christ) in order to access what is necessary to irresistibly believe. However, I argue that this is in conflict with Ephesians 1:13. You are welcome to explain that verse to me, and tell me why it does not conflict with Calvinism.

You wrote: “God in His perfect knowledge, allowed mankind to come into existence knowing full well that they would never receive the Gospel.”

Only Open Theists would deny God “perfect knowledge.”

You wrote: “Richard, I could not care less what Jerry, or John, or R.C. or anyone else says.”

I cited Vines and Sproul in an attempt to present to comparative analogies, both for your benefit and perhaps others who may enjoy seeing their thoughts on the matter.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed Believer:

You wrote: “God is not a human historian.”

That’s twice you’ve said this, and twice I’ve agreed. My point is merely that knowing history doesn’t determine history. Thus, God may know the future without necessarily causing the future. Obviously, God uses His foreknowledge to establish His plans, i.e. Acts 2:23.

You wrote: “Does He cause everyone to be born again?”

Of course not. I made a flow-chart, in the post to James. If you have a chance to review it, you will see at-what-point a person is made born again. A person is made born when they are "sealed in Christ." Calvinism agrees. However, Calvinism differs by suggesting that certain men are preemptively made in Christ (pre-faith in Christ) in order to access what is necessary to irresistibly believe. However, I argue that this is in conflict with Ephesians 1:13. You are welcome to explain that verse to me, and tell me why it does not conflict with Calvinism.

You wrote: “God in His perfect knowledge, allowed mankind to come into existence knowing full well that they would never receive the Gospel.”

Only Open Theists would deny God “perfect knowledge.”

You wrote: “Richard, I could not care less what Jerry, or John, or R.C. or anyone else says.”

I cited Vines and Sproul in an attempt to present to comparative analogies, both for your benefit and perhaps others who may enjoy seeing their thoughts on the matter.

Well Richard, there are a few open theist on this bb. You admit only an open theist would say God does not have perfect knowledge. Do you admit that God allows some men to come into existence without a "chance" to be saved? Remember, He knew some would never believe, but He allowed them to come into existence anyway.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer:

Perfect Knowledge = Omniscience.

By God's perfect Knowledge, He foreknew that the "rich man" of Luke 16:19-31 would reject Him, in terms of rejecting Him under the covenant of Israel. Yet, God let the "rich man" be born into this world. Then comes your question: Does that mean that the "rich man" never had an opportunity to be saved? Of course he had an opportunity to be saved, and rejected it, and this God foreknew. If the man had not rejected his opportunity, then God's perfect foreknowledge would have reflected that. The problem is that you have a pair of glasses, that whenever you read foreknowledge, you see Determinism.

However, you glossed over my post about Ephesians 1:13. It says that only when you believe, are you sealed in Chirst. However, Calvinism teaches that those who are sealed in Christ, believe, and hence Calvinism has it backwards. Would you care to comment on Ephesians 1:13?

Ephesians 1:13-14: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory."

 

[Jarthur001]

Your gobbldy gook was in the sense you were trying to put so many loaded guns in to your holsters at once it basically was a conglomerated mess (Pee Wee Herman - Rambo style). I'll answer some more latter, right now I'been up for 38 hours striaght and I'm exhausted.

Thats MR Rambo ...