In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

Do those who God forsaw would not believe have a chance to be saved?

 

Ouch! Great question. I can't wait to see the "answers".

 

LOL, I'm sorry but that is just laughable.

Ok, let us begin again:
Long suffering to USWARD;
hemas {hay-mas'}
us, we, our etc.

Then we look at "ALL should come to repentence":
pas {pas}
individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

Now let us think carefully here. If we read this passage as you would have us beleive we would be espousing Open Theism. Why?
Let us put it together and see your context:
The Lord is not slack (slow) concerning His promise as some men count (consider) slackness (slowness) but is longsuffering (patient) to usward (all mankind) not willing that any (not one) should perish but that all (the whole of mankind) come to repentence (a change of mind - concerning his relationship to God).

So Gods desire is that the whole world would repent so they will not perish and He is patiently for it so He can fullfil His promise of all of mankinds redeption.
Open theism espouses the whole world being saved. Are you shifting theologies on us?

We have to remember the defining peramiter of the word 'all' (with regard to repentence) in the sentence structure is in direct proportion to 'us-ward'. For context to keep consistant with the Word IT MUST BE that the "usward" (as with the context of the whole chapter) is refering to believers; and that the "ALL" it speaks of (or whole) isn't the world of mankind but the believers!
for His promises are ONLY to the believers.

 

If you understand my position to mean what I have underlined and put in bold print in your statement then you have misunderstood me.

God foresees, foreknows, all real and potential events and all the causes and effects both real and potential. God elects on the basis of foreknowledge not on the basis of an arbitrary picking and selecting whereby he then enables those He picks to believe by first regenerating them then infusing them with a so called special faith.

Man is a free moral agent and can freely respond to the message of Grace. God sees this in eternity past as we phrase it. Elects us on this basis, appoints us on this basis. All that were appointed believed. How? on the basis of God's Foreknowledge. We are elect in Christ on the basis of God's Absolute knowledge which we call foreknowledge, foresight, prescience.

One way of stating the difference is: Can man freely believe or disbelieve or is He made to believe. You see for me I see Calvinism as a philosophical fatalistic approach to Salvation and the defense of God’s Sovereignty. I reject this teaching. I do not dispute Calvinist are eager to defend God, God’s Sovereignty, etc. But I disagree with their understanding and see it as a philosophical attempt to solve it from a man’s perspective and not from a Biblical perspective. I very plainly see Calvinism as a false philosophy of the Bible.

I know you will disagree and I hope that you will defend the Scripture not Calvin or Augustine, or any so called reformer. Just defend the Bible and forget them.

 

LOL.......... you are hard headed huh?

Can a person who God forsaw would never believe, have a chance to be saved?

If God in eternity past saw who would believe and who would not... then in time people are born who God forsaw ....... some to believe and some not, then how do they really have a chance or free will? Those who God forsaw not believe do not have free will to belive. Those who God forsaw believe, do not have a chance to not believe. ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE THAN CALVINISM.

I'll bet you will play politician and talk out of both sides of your mouth. And I'm not a betting man...........lol

 

I'm not defending any theologian. I'm asking for you to defend your position. Now step up to the plate.

 

Well that is not logical at all. If God's knowledge is perfect, then people will choose in a manner that will be consistent with His perfect knowledge. How can a person be born and have a chance to choose differently than what God perfectly knows? Your knowledge is not God's knowledge.

 

Foreknowledge, foresight is not coercive. God's Absolute Knowledge is so Absolute He knows the end from the beginning. All decisions both real and potential are known. God knows that if a person were exposed to the truth weather they would believe or not.

The simple answer is Yes to your question.

There are two points here that should be address: God Planned. That is One

Two: Within God's over all plan God and only God has the capability to plan such a plan where by all freedom given to man will not hinder or turn aside the all encompassing plan of God.

Think of it this way. God planned to create. If God did not see Adam sin then God would not have within this perfect plan to create Adam been able to have within this plan the provision of Grace for man kind. It does boggle the mind. But If you or I take form God the ability to tell us that in eternity pass or before the foundation of the world Christ was slain which means God knew that Adam would sin and thus provided the solution in Christ and declared it so in eternity. It is this same Absolute Knowledge that is only possible with God that allows Him to see, do and maintain His One Grand Purpose for His creation. To say that He does not save on the basis of foreknowledge would be to say He can not provide for man’s sin by crucifying Christ before the foundation of the world. Paul clearly places us in Christ before the foundation of the world. So for God to know a need and provide the need before the foundation of the world on the basis that he foresaw, foreknew Adam’s sin clearly states likewise that we are saved on the basis of our personally having faith in Him and not forced to believe in Him .

To tell me that a person can not freely in time and space believe and that his believe is totally a free choice would be to tell me that God could not in His plan crucify Christ before the foundation of the world.

Calvinism is, to me, completely out in left field and while Calvinist are wanting to champion the Sovereignty of God they do so in error. I applaud the enthusiasm and zealousness but it is miss directed, and the Scripture is misinterpreted. Philosophy is the foundation of Calvinism not Biblical Truth.

If God is going to hold anyone responsible for a decision there most be a real capability to freely decide to follow God or not.

I know that one brother is not happy with the 2 Peter 3 position I take but the grammar and context support the motive - purpose - wish of God. This purpose can not exist if God is arbitrary in his dealing with man concerning salvation. It will destroy His holiness. This in and of itself is a major problem with the Calvinist position - not to say all the other points are not as rattled with Scriptural error and thinking, because they are.

 

Can a movie you foresaw end any differently than how you saw it? Did the fact you knew what the ending would be mean you caused it to end the way it did?

 

I'm not God with perfect knowledge. No one has been able to answer me. Gordon and examiningcalvinism included. Seems we need an examiningarminianism.......lol

Gordon, just because you say so doesn't make it so. Prove it. Show how man can choose in a manner that is *NOT* consistent with God's perfect knowledge.

 

Foreknowledge does NOT = foreplanning or foredetermining.

Foreknowledge
FOREKNOWL'EDGE, n. Knowledge of a thing before it happens; prescience.
If I foreknew, foreknowledge had no influence on their fault.

 

Prove it. I say that if God has perfect knowledge, and He does, then we will always have to choose in a manner that will be consistent with His perfect knowledge. You might say that is philosophical.... so prove it is not true philosophically. I have bible that backs me up. Psalms 139 for one. Where are your bible verses that says it is not true? Defeat it philosophically.

 

Not at all. I can't wait for the book. I'll wait till it goes on sale.......lol