In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

No. I believe He chose us in Christ, who also is in the Father. Now you are going to quote Ephesians 1:13 The Holy Spirit is the one who makes us hear...... so I have absolutely no problem and see no problem with my view and 1:13.

 

Absolutely! This just points out His sovereignty. His absolute perfect knowledge. Did they do as He said they would?

 

Good night Richard. I enjoyed the debate. I'll see you tomorrow if that is in God's plan. Grace and peace.

 

I have been lurking around reading posts.
It is my personal opinion that discussing the Calvinists' doctrine with examining calvinism will be pretty much like discussing doctrine with a Roman Catholic.
The Roman Catholic does not believe the Bible to be the sole source of doctrine and teaching, and so draws on his own conclusions about certain matters, and on what the church, traditions, and the popes have written, even if shown by Scripture that his conclusions do not square with what God says in the Bible.
It's pretty much futile.

 

Catholics bring extra Biblical writings in - giving them a loop hole for all sorts of error

Calvinist relying on philosophy - giving them an avenue to all kinds of error. In a sense Calvinist are also bring into interpretation extra biblical thinking.

At least they both start with a C.

 

Hello examiningcalvinism,

Was this a yes? It sounds like a yes to me. Just like your list..Regeneration, Born Again, The Indwelling, Eternal Life, the Christian Calling,...all of these words are talking about people that are saved. So I agree with YOU in this ..."In Christ" is a phrase that means we are saved

Again you dodge. You say God elects based on a union "in Christ". The God that you are defending has a love that is conditional, and is obligated only after only by something the sinner does. This renders God helpless to do nothing till mans will choose to do something. God is a reacter in this view.

16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Indeed you are right. And this shows us the nature of God. Why did Christ choose Peter and not Jack? The Paul hit over the head, blinded, and told from a voice from Heaven, and Jack was not? Did God save Paul because God know Paul would believe is God blinded Paul and spoke to him from Heaven? If so, why not do this to each man? Why not pick up each man...really pick them up...and dangle them over the pit of Hell, and then God while holding them, say..hell is real...I am God...do you believe me? Much like Paul, I think more people would believe. But God does not do as He did to Paul, to all men. Why? Election my friend.

Again you rest only on this phrase, yet in your own words you claim it means a person is saved. You dodge what was ask.

Are we chosen before we are born? Yes..
Romans 9

Can God save all men like He did Paul? If so, why does He not? Can God step in a direct men? If God can, God is limits freewill. Did God do this to Jonah? If God cannot limit free will, then why do you pray for God to change a persons heart?

Who is in control? God? Mans will? You cannot have both. If you say its mans will, then God cannot stop man.

I would word it this way..

God elected me. You want to push your idea of "in Christ" and "in the Father". How about "in the spirit"? Is this 3 elections? I think you need to spend some time thinking about this.

Lets look at Eph 1...see next post.

 

Eph 1 is a list of blessing we have "in Christ"....or when we are saved.

In Christ means we are saved. It means we are not of this world.

All of these blessings come to us, by the work of God. These are applied to only the elect of God. Notice God loves the saints.



In Christ...James

 

Amen :thumbs:

 

Good "luck" on your book. I hope it is predestined to become a best seller. If the majority view of Christianity has anything to do with it, then it will be a best seller. The majority of Christianity love man centered doctrine. You see, they are heaping together teachers who will tickle their ears. Does this surprise me? I don't think so.

I perfectly well understand what you think are the implications of my answer in the negative to you. The problem is that you come to your conclusions ignoring much of what you have already shown in your answers to me as faulty logic. I'm sorry, but if the least of the least of theologians can show you fault in your theology, then you might have a problem getting your book among the best seller list.

Grace and peace.

 

In other words... you did not like the answers I gave you.

 

I can't no. But my God can do all things. God works in mens lives. This is why we pray...because God changes mens heart. God does not just leave man to himself. If He did, all men would go to hell. If we did not believe can can step in a change a persons heart...stop praying. If God cannot..mans will rules. If God can step in...God limits freewill.

back to foreknowing. If God elects only based on a knowing what will happen, then those that He sees as unbelievers will not be saved. This is nothing more then Calvinism. Hyper at that.

 

I understand fully what you are saying. What I have been saying all along is this is not a new idea. I said this from page one. All it takes is a understanding of grammer, to see you and all others that have tried to push this idea have nothing. We tried to show you this in many ways, yet each time you dodge around.

We went though your list of events one by one. That did not work.
We looked at your views on being holy to be set-apart. That too did not work.
reformedbeliever showed you why your view of foreknowing does not work.
We looked at your very Phrase "in Christ" and showed you place your full doctrine in this one phrase where it twist youe output and you can see nothing else. BTW..that does not work.
We have showen you verses stateing election comes 1st. You reject them.
We have used simply stoies of elcting a mayor...you dodged that one all together.

Based on you screen name, and your post, you came to the BB in order to give the true light to Calvinist. You have shown you are more about your thoughts and ideas of how you want to see God, then believing the Bible as it is. You are not here to understand Calvinism. You're here to educate the foolish Calvinist. You have fail in your goal my friend. Print your book, but from what I see it is nothing new. Its the same old thing of wanting your will over Gods power. You will not change a true Calvinist with this old idea. We have hread it many times before. You may get a few pats on the back from free-willers. It seems like they believe stuff like this. But if you want to talk Bible...lets do it. Drop the White said...and Calvin said...as if it was Gods Word. Once again you have shown non-Calvinist quote Calvin more then Calvinst do. Yet when they do, they show their lack of understanding. Its best just not to quote any one, if you do not read the whole book.

 

BTW...I did read a few things on your site. When I have more time, and if you stick around, I would love to address many things on there to show your focus is more on man and your will, then God.

Give me a month and We will get into some good ones. I'm pretty bust now, and can only make a few post a day.

 

What do you call what James and reformed believer have been doing for several days if not engaging in debate and discussion with you?

You said

I think James has it right:

 

Wow, I'm glad I stayed out of this one. My advice for the new member is to just speak of his/her own opinions and stop pretending that he/she has a handle on other people's perspectives, especially Calvin himself. I'm not sure what Calvin's view of the OP's question would have been, but since he predated the divine decrees controversy it is highly unlikely that there's any data in his writings available that would answer the question beyond sheer speculation.

My suspicion is that this person only knows English (thus, is handicapped by the translations thereof) has not even read the requisite secondary sources in English that aptly discuss Calvin (i.e., Muller, Steinmetz) and does not know how Calvin's contemporaries understood him. His website will probably be enjoyed by many on this board who can't type Calvin in a sentence without also typing Servetus (BTW how many Anabaptists did Zwingli put to death?), but it seems to perpetuate the caricature that all too many people love to promote while purposely ignoring the good history that's out there on the subject.


BJ

PS-Many Lutherans would be shocked to hear that they are a denomination of "Calvinistic, Reformed theology."

 

It is normal for calvinist to get all defensive any time a non-calvinist says anything that does not meet with a calvinist approval. I think it is because the calvinist are fatalistically destined to just be that way. They are just being true to their fatalism. That is it in a nut shell.

 

Gordon, do you know what fatalism is? Calvinist hold very high, in the highest esteem, our Almighty sovereign God. We do not make Him a weak God such as your theology does. We believe that Almighty sovereign God is in control of all things, including salvation..... and that nothing is left to fate. We have a God centered theology, yours is man centered.

It seems that you are the ones who get all defensive when your theology is found to be defective. I think you are one of the biggest advocates of God electing due to prescience. How about you answering the questions we asked of Richard? I'll just bet you would have to try to talk your way around them also... seeing as how it proves how faulty your open theist view is.