In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

[reformedbeliever]

James,

You wrote: “what does ‘in Christ’ mean other than a phrase saying they are saved?”

Only when you become sealed in Christ, do you become “saved,” and receive all that God the Father has bestowed in Christ, namely, redemption (Rom 8:1), Regeneration, Born Again, The Indwelling, Eternal Life, the Christian Calling, ect., and I've listed these in no particular order.

You wrote: “Do you elect me as mayor after i'm "in Office"?”

Rather than to address an irrelevent analogy, I will say that the Bible teaches that God the Father elects you TO adoption on the basis on the basis of your UNION with His Son (i.e. chosen in Christ), which union occurs when you are sealed in His Body as “one spirit” with Him. (1 Cor 6:16-17) Having become in Christ, you were foreknown in Christ, as per Romans 8:28-29. That passage is addressed to those in Christ, and it is those who are in Christ that were foreknown in Him, and predestined to all that God the Father has in store for Christians.

You wrote: “I have chosen you out of the world”

This is a quote from John 17 in terms of Jesus electing His disciples.

You wrote: “Now I ask you again....Does God chose us AFTER we choose to believe and are "IN CHRIST"??? Does not the Bible teach us the Christ chooses us 1st? Does not the Bible teach us that the choosing wa before we were born?”

After we choose to believe in Christ, we are sealed in Christ. Ephesians 1:13 states: “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise...” When you are sealed in Christ, you become part of the Body of Christ. When you become part of the Body of Christ, you become part of an Elect body that the Father has chosen for adoption, holiness, salvation, eternal life, ect.

You wrote: “This God is weak in that He cannot stop man by changing what He has already foresaw. Freewill determines all things in this view.”

1st Corinthians 10:13 states: “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.” This verse invalidates Determinism, and you have characterized God as "weak," solely on the basis that He chooses not to determine every choice of man, though He could do this, and is able to do so. God is able to give everyone irresistible grace, but instead, He gives prevenient grace when He evangelizes those who are the old creature in Adam. If I had my choice, it would be that God would give everyone irresistible grace, as you would likely agree, but God’s ways are not Richard's or James' ways.

Now my question for you:

Do you believe that God the Father chose you in Himself from before the foundation of the world, in an eternal flock of the Father, in order that you may be given and chosen to be in His Son? (Yes/No)

No. I believe He chose us in Christ, who also is in the Father. Now you are going to quote Ephesians 1:13 The Holy Spirit is the one who makes us hear...... so I have absolutely no problem and see no problem with my view and 1:13.

 

[reformedbeliever]

If you want to know about God being the Sovereign Potter over the clay, then explain it to me from the perspective of God's own words at Jeremiah 18:1-13:

Jeremiah 18:1-13
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.’ But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’ “Therefore thus says the LORD, ‘Ask now among the nations, who ever heard the like of this?The virgin of Israel has done a most appalling thing.’”

Did God measure up to your standards?

Absolutely! This just points out His sovereignty. His absolute perfect knowledge. Did they do as He said they would?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Good night Richard. I enjoyed the debate. I'll see you tomorrow if that is in God's plan. Grace and peace.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer:

I asked James: "Do you believe that God the Father chose you in Himself from before the foundation of the world, in an eternal flock of the Father, in order that you may be given and chosen to be in His Son? (Yes/No)"

You have graciously accepted to answer this question, and have said "no."

While I appreciate your response, because it addresses the central issue of my Opening Post, I feel that you do not fully understand the ramifications of the question, and therefore to James, I must turn. It was a pleasure speaking with you, and I look forward to future discussions.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I have been lurking around reading posts.
It is my personal opinion that discussing the Calvinists' doctrine with examining calvinism will be pretty much like discussing doctrine with a Roman Catholic.
The Roman Catholic does not believe the Bible to be the sole source of doctrine and teaching, and so draws on his own conclusions about certain matters, and on what the church, traditions, and the popes have written, even if shown by Scripture that his conclusions do not square with what God says in the Bible.
It's pretty much futile.

 

[GordonSlocum]

I have been lurking around reading posts.
It is my personal opinion that discussing the Calvinists' doctrine with examining calvinism will be pretty much like discussing doctrine with a Roman Catholic.
The Roman Catholic does not believe the Bible to be the sole source of doctrine and teaching, and so draws on his own conclusions about certain matters, and on what the church, traditions, and the popes have written, even if shown by Scripture that his conclusions do not square with what God says in the Bible.
It's pretty much futile.

Catholics bring extra Biblical writings in - giving them a loop hole for all sorts of error

Calvinist relying on philosophy - giving them an avenue to all kinds of error. In a sense Calvinist are also bring into interpretation extra biblical thinking.

At least they both start with a C.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello examiningcalvinism,

You wrote: “what does ‘in Christ’ mean other than a phrase saying they are saved?”

Only when you become sealed in Christ, do you become “saved,” and receive all that God the Father has bestowed in Christ, namely, redemption (Rom 8:1), Regeneration, Born Again, The Indwelling, Eternal Life, the Christian Calling, ect., and I've listed these in no particular order.

Was this a yes? It sounds like a yes to me. Just like your list..Regeneration, Born Again, The Indwelling, Eternal Life, the Christian Calling,...all of these words are talking about people that are saved. So I agree with YOU in this ..."In Christ" is a phrase that means we are saved

You wrote: “Do you elect me as mayor after i'm "in Office"?”

Rather than to address an irrelevent analogy, I will say that the Bible teaches that God the Father elects you TO adoption on the basis on the basis of your UNION with His Son (i.e. chosen in Christ), which union occurs when you are sealed in His Body as “one spirit” with Him. (1 Cor 6:16-17) Having become in Christ, you were foreknown in Christ, as per Romans 8:28-29. That passage is addressed to those in Christ, and it is those who are in Christ that were foreknown in Him, and predestined to all that God the Father has in store for Christians.

Again you dodge. You say God elects based on a union "in Christ". The God that you are defending has a love that is conditional, and is obligated only after only by something the sinner does. This renders God helpless to do nothing till mans will choose to do something. God is a reacter in this view.

16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

You wrote: “I have chosen you out of the world”

This is a quote from John 17 in terms of Jesus electing His disciples.

Indeed you are right. And this shows us the nature of God. Why did Christ choose Peter and not Jack? The Paul hit over the head, blinded, and told from a voice from Heaven, and Jack was not? Did God save Paul because God know Paul would believe is God blinded Paul and spoke to him from Heaven? If so, why not do this to each man? Why not pick up each man...really pick them up...and dangle them over the pit of Hell, and then God while holding them, say..hell is real...I am God...do you believe me? Much like Paul, I think more people would believe. But God does not do as He did to Paul, to all men. Why? Election my friend.

You wrote: “Now I ask you again....Does God chose us AFTER we choose to believe and are "IN CHRIST"??? Does not the Bible teach us the Christ chooses us 1st? Does not the Bible teach us that the choosing wa before we were born?”

After we choose to believe in Christ, we are sealed in Christ. Ephesians 1:13 states: “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise...” When you are sealed in Christ, you become part of the Body of Christ. When you become part of the Body of Christ, you become part of an Elect body that the Father has chosen for adoption, holiness, salvation, eternal life, ect.

Again you rest only on this phrase, yet in your own words you claim it means a person is saved. You dodge what was ask.

Are we chosen before we are born? Yes..
Romans 9

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

You wrote: “This God is weak in that He cannot stop man by changing what He has already foresaw. Freewill determines all things in this view.”

1st Corinthians 10:13 states: “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.” This verse invalidates Determinism, and you have characterized God as "weak," solely on the basis that He chooses not to determine every choice of man, though He could do this, and is able to do so. God is able to give everyone irresistible grace, but instead, He gives prevenient grace when He evangelizes those who are the old creature in Adam. If I had my choice, it would be that God would give everyone irresistible grace, as you would likely agree, but God’s ways are not Richard's or James' ways.

Can God save all men like He did Paul? If so, why does He not? Can God step in a direct men? If God can, God is limits freewill. Did God do this to Jonah? If God cannot limit free will, then why do you pray for God to change a persons heart?

Who is in control? God? Mans will? You cannot have both. If you say its mans will, then God cannot stop man.

Now my question for you:

Question to James: Do you believe that God the Father chose you in Himself from before the foundation of the world, in an eternal flock of the Father, in order that you may be given and chosen to be in His Son? (Yes/No)

I would word it this way..

God elected me. You want to push your idea of "in Christ" and "in the Father". How about "in the spirit"? Is this 3 elections? I think you need to spend some time thinking about this.

Question to James: If Ephesians 1:4 meant that God the Father chose "the elect" to be in Christ, then in whom were these elect chosen in order to be qualified for election in the Son? The purpose of this question is to determine whether Calvinism truly does teach a primary election in the Father, with a resulting secondary election in the Son. I hope that Saturday will bring me a direct answer to this question.

Lets look at Eph 1...see next post.

 

[Jarthur001]

Eph 1 is a list of blessing we have "in Christ"....or when we are saved.

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

NOTE:>>> this is to the set-apart ones...the saints.

2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

NOTE:>>> Key verse. This is the beginning of the list of spiritual blessings that we have "in Christ"...or when we are saved.

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

NOTE:>>> We are blessed for we are chosen in Christ.

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

NOTE:>>> We are blessed for we are predestinated in Christ.

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

NOTE:>>> We are blessed for we are accepted in Christ.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

NOTE:>>> We are blessed for we are redeemed in Christ.

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

NOTE:>>> We are blessed for with Godly wisdom in Christ.

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

NOTE:>>> We are blessed for we now know His will in Christ.

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

NOTE:>>> We are blessed in that we now have an inheritance in Christ.

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

NOTE:>>> We are blessed for we are sealed with promise in Christ.

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

NOTE:>>> We are blessed for we Christ paid a earnest for us in Christ.

15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

NOTE:>>> We are blessed for we loved in Christ.

16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

NOTE:>>> We are blessed for we are now have knowledge of Him in Christ.

18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

NOTE:>>> We are blessed for we are now enlightened in Christ.

19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

NOTE:>>> We are blessed because of HIS power that HE has worked out in us that are in Christ.

20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Which GOD worked IN CHRIST

In Christ means we are saved. It means we are not of this world.

All of these blessings come to us, by the work of God. These are applied to only the elect of God. Notice God loves the saints.



In Christ...James

 

[examiningcalvinism]

James

James,

In your post on Ephesians, you've listed everything that God has sovereignly bestowed in Christ. If I want those things, I must become in Christ.

Either I am predestined TO BECOME in Christ, or.... I am predestined in Christ, meaning that I have a predestined inheritance once I become sealed "in Christ."

Either I am chosen TO BECOME in Christ, or.... I am chosen IN CHRIST, speaking of what blessings of Adoption that I can look forward to in Christ.

I am NOT trying to push my ideas of Election on you. I'm trying to discern whether the Calvinistic alternative of TO BECOME logically presupposes a superior election in the Father which results in one being chosen TO BECOME in Christ. Why would I want to know such a thing? I'm seeking to know what is the ultimate reality of Calvinistic Election, in terms of whether God having an "eternal flock of the Father" sets up a condition for an eternal "in the Father" Election. Calvin seemed to hint at this by suggesting that those who are eternally "hidden in God" are the recipients of His redeeming grace, whereby James White explains that God gave him to Jesus from before the foundation of the world. Therefore, in order for the Father to "give" him to Jesus, wouldn't it logically require that James White first be the Father's own possession in order to "give" him away, like the father of the Bride gives His daughter to the groom? Does Calvinism teach an eternal "in the Father" Election, and is that the primary election which results in a secondary election in the Son? And that's only the first part of the question. The second part says that if a person is not sealed in Christ until after He believes in Christ (Eph 1:13), and knowing that the new birth (born again, new creature) is one of the Father's many blessings IN Christ (2Cor 5:17), how then can you preemptively access the new birth (preemptive regeneration) before being sealed in Him? On a personal note, if I have been chosen "in the Father" from before the foundation of the world in an eternal "in the Father" Election, then does Christ Mediate for me in vain, knowing that I have already been eternally Mediated to the Father in His eternal secret counsel? These 3 strikes are what tells me that Calvinism is called O-U-T. For the answer to your questions on the other verses, feel free to visit www.examiningcalvinism.com

 

[webdog]

In your post on Ephesians, you've listed everything that God has sovereignly bestowed in Christ. If I want those things, I must become in Christ.

Either I am predestined TO BECOME in Christ, or.... I am predestined in Christ, meaning that I have a predestined inheritance once I become sealed "in Christ."

Either I am chosen TO BECOME in Christ, or.... I am chosen IN CHRIST, speaking of what blessings of Adoption that I can look forward to in Christ.

Amen :thumbs:

 

[reformedbeliever]

James,

In your post on Ephesians, you've listed everything that God has sovereignly bestowed in Christ. If I want those things, I must become in Christ.

Either I am predestined TO BECOME in Christ, or.... I am predestined in Christ, meaning that I have a predestined inheritance once I become sealed "in Christ."

Either I am chosen TO BECOME in Christ, or.... I am chosen IN CHRIST, speaking of what blessings of Adoption that I can look forward to in Christ.

I am NOT trying to push my ideas of Election on you. I'm trying to discern whether the Calvinistic alternative of TO BECOME logically presupposes a superior election in the Father which results in one being chosen TO BECOME in Christ. Why would I want to know such a thing? I'm seeking to know what is the ultimate reality of Calvinistic Election, in terms of whether God having an "eternal flock of the Father" sets up a condition for an eternal "in the Father" Election. Calvin seemed to hint at this by suggesting that those who are eternally "hidden in God" are the recipients of His redeeming grace, whereby James White explains that God gave him to Jesus from before the foundation of the world. Therefore, in order for the Father to "give" him to Jesus, wouldn't it logically require that James White first be the Father's own possession in order to "give" him away, like the father of the Bride gives His daughter to the groom? Does Calvinism teach an eternal "in the Father" Election, and is that the primary election which results in a secondary election in the Son? And that's only the first part of the question. The second part says that if a person is not sealed in Christ until after He believes in Christ (Eph 1:13), and knowing that the new birth (born again, new creature) is one of the Father's many blessings IN Christ (2Cor 5:17), how then can you preemptively access the new birth (preemptive regeneration) before being sealed in Him? On a personal note, if I have been chosen "in the Father" from before the foundation of the world in an eternal "in the Father" Election, then does Christ Mediate for me in vain, knowing that I have already been eternally Mediated to the Father in His eternal secret counsel? These 3 strikes are what tells me that Calvinism is called O-U-T. For the answer to your questions on the other verses, feel free to visit www.examiningcalvinism.com

Good "luck" on your book. I hope it is predestined to become a best seller. If the majority view of Christianity has anything to do with it, then it will be a best seller. The majority of Christianity love man centered doctrine. You see, they are heaping together teachers who will tickle their ears. Does this surprise me? I don't think so.

I perfectly well understand what you think are the implications of my answer in the negative to you. The problem is that you come to your conclusions ignoring much of what you have already shown in your answers to me as faulty logic. I'm sorry, but if the least of the least of theologians can show you fault in your theology, then you might have a problem getting your book among the best seller list.

Grace and peace.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed Believer:

I asked James: "Do you believe that God the Father chose you in Himself from before the foundation of the world, in an eternal flock of the Father, in order that you may be given and chosen to be in His Son? (Yes/No)"

You have graciously accepted to answer this question, and have said "no."

While I appreciate your response, because it addresses the central issue of my Opening Post, I feel that you do not fully understand the ramifications of the question, and therefore to James, I must turn. It was a pleasure speaking with you, and I look forward to future discussions.

In other words... you did not like the answers I gave you.

 

[Jarthur001]

Can a movie you foresaw end any differently than how you saw it? Did the fact you knew what the ending would be mean you caused it to end the way it did?

I can't no. But my God can do all things. God works in mens lives. This is why we pray...because God changes mens heart. God does not just leave man to himself. If He did, all men would go to hell. If we did not believe can can step in a change a persons heart...stop praying. If God cannot..mans will rules. If God can step in...God limits freewill.

back to foreknowing. If God elects only based on a knowing what will happen, then those that He sees as unbelievers will not be saved. This is nothing more then Calvinism. Hyper at that.

 

[Jarthur001]

James,

In your post on Ephesians, you've listed everything that God has sovereignly bestowed in Christ. If I want those things, I must become in Christ.

Either I am predestined TO BECOME in Christ, or.... I am predestined in Christ, meaning that I have a predestined inheritance once I become sealed "in Christ."

Either I am chosen TO BECOME in Christ, or.... I am chosen IN CHRIST, speaking of what blessings of Adoption that I can look forward to in Christ.

I am NOT trying to push my ideas of Election on you. I'm trying to discern whether the Calvinistic alternative of TO BECOME logically presupposes a superior election in the Father which results in one being chosen TO BECOME in Christ. Why would I want to know such a thing? I'm seeking to know what is the ultimate reality of Calvinistic Election, in terms of whether God having an "eternal flock of the Father" sets up a condition for an eternal "in the Father" Election. Calvin seemed to hint at this by suggesting that those who are eternally "hidden in God" are the recipients of His redeeming grace, whereby James White explains that God gave him to Jesus from before the foundation of the world. Therefore, in order for the Father to "give" him to Jesus, wouldn't it logically require that James White first be the Father's own possession in order to "give" him away, like the father of the Bride gives His daughter to the groom? Does Calvinism teach an eternal "in the Father" Election, and is that the primary election which results in a secondary election in the Son? And that's only the first part of the question. The second part says that if a person is not sealed in Christ until after He believes in Christ (Eph 1:13), and knowing that the new birth (born again, new creature) is one of the Father's many blessings IN Christ (2Cor 5:17), how then can you preemptively access the new birth (preemptive regeneration) before being sealed in Him? On a personal note, if I have been chosen "in the Father" from before the foundation of the world in an eternal "in the Father" Election, then does Christ Mediate for me in vain, knowing that I have already been eternally Mediated to the Father in His eternal secret counsel? These 3 strikes are what tells me that Calvinism is called O-U-T. For the answer to your questions on the other verses, feel free to visit www.examiningcalvinism.com

I understand fully what you are saying. What I have been saying all along is this is not a new idea. I said this from page one. All it takes is a understanding of grammer, to see you and all others that have tried to push this idea have nothing. We tried to show you this in many ways, yet each time you dodge around.

We went though your list of events one by one. That did not work.
We looked at your views on being holy to be set-apart. That too did not work.
reformedbeliever showed you why your view of foreknowing does not work.
We looked at your very Phrase "in Christ" and showed you place your full doctrine in this one phrase where it twist youe output and you can see nothing else. BTW..that does not work.
We have showen you verses stateing election comes 1st. You reject them.
We have used simply stoies of elcting a mayor...you dodged that one all together.

Based on you screen name, and your post, you came to the BB in order to give the true light to Calvinist. You have shown you are more about your thoughts and ideas of how you want to see God, then believing the Bible as it is. You are not here to understand Calvinism. You're here to educate the foolish Calvinist. You have fail in your goal my friend. Print your book, but from what I see it is nothing new. Its the same old thing of wanting your will over Gods power. You will not change a true Calvinist with this old idea. We have hread it many times before. You may get a few pats on the back from free-willers. It seems like they believe stuff like this. But if you want to talk Bible...lets do it. Drop the White said...and Calvin said...as if it was Gods Word. Once again you have shown non-Calvinist quote Calvin more then Calvinst do. Yet when they do, they show their lack of understanding. Its best just not to quote any one, if you do not read the whole book.

 

[Jarthur001]

BTW...I did read a few things on your site. When I have more time, and if you stick around, I would love to address many things on there to show your focus is more on man and your will, then God.

Give me a month and We will get into some good ones. I'm pretty bust now, and can only make a few post a day.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

James

James,

Believe me when I say that I do NOT care if you wanted to believe that the moon was made of GREEN CHEESE. Believe whatever you feel like believing. I'm NOT here to change your mind. I'm here for education, not proselytization.

I'm simply trying to discern the ultimate implication of Calvinistic Election, in order to present a true contrast between the two competing theological systems. I've cited Calvin, White and MacDonald, and there are many other authors who have hinted at the same concept, without coming right out and just saying so. That documentation is located on my website in the Ephesians 1:4 writeup.

I had simply asked IF, according to Calvinism, THE ELECT were chosen TO BECOME in Christ, whether that presupposed another Election. In other words, if THE CHOSEN are chosen to become in Christ, then in whom were they chosen, in order to receive this Election? To me, it seems logically inescapable that the answer would be "in the Father," insomuch as those who are eternally elect in the Father are chosen TO BECOME in Christ. Additional documentation is found on my Ephesians 1:4 writeup, which SEEMS to bear this theory out. I'm here because I have a legimate NEED TO KNOW, in the interest of the development of my materials.

At this point, it seems ABUNDANTLY clear that you do NOT wish to join me in candidly evaluating this question from the Calvinist's perspective. Hence, I move on.

 

[Tom Butler]

At this point, it seems ABUNDANTLY clear that you do NOT wish to join me in candidly evaluating this question from the Calvinist's perspective. Hence, I move on.

What do you call what James and reformed believer have been doing for several days if not engaging in debate and discussion with you?

You said

I am NOT trying to push my ideas of Election on you.

I think James has it right:

You are not here to understand Calvinism. You're here to educate the foolish Calvinist.

 

[Brandon C. Jones]

Wow, I'm glad I stayed out of this one. My advice for the new member is to just speak of his/her own opinions and stop pretending that he/she has a handle on other people's perspectives, especially Calvin himself. I'm not sure what Calvin's view of the OP's question would have been, but since he predated the divine decrees controversy it is highly unlikely that there's any data in his writings available that would answer the question beyond sheer speculation.

My suspicion is that this person only knows English (thus, is handicapped by the translations thereof) has not even read the requisite secondary sources in English that aptly discuss Calvin (i.e., Muller, Steinmetz) and does not know how Calvin's contemporaries understood him. His website will probably be enjoyed by many on this board who can't type Calvin in a sentence without also typing Servetus (BTW how many Anabaptists did Zwingli put to death?), but it seems to perpetuate the caricature that all too many people love to promote while purposely ignoring the good history that's out there on the subject.


BJ

PS-Many Lutherans would be shocked to hear that they are a denomination of "Calvinistic, Reformed theology."

 

[GordonSlocum]

It is normal for calvinist to get all defensive any time a non-calvinist says anything that does not meet with a calvinist approval. I think it is because the calvinist are fatalistically destined to just be that way. They are just being true to their fatalism. That is it in a nut shell.

 

[reformedbeliever]

It is normal for calvinist to get all defensive any time a non-calvinist says anything that does not meet with a calvinist approval. I think it is because the calvinist are fatalistically destined to just be that way. They are just being true to their fatalism. That is it in a nut shell.

Gordon, do you know what fatalism is? Calvinist hold very high, in the highest esteem, our Almighty sovereign God. We do not make Him a weak God such as your theology does. We believe that Almighty sovereign God is in control of all things, including salvation..... and that nothing is left to fate. We have a God centered theology, yours is man centered.

It seems that you are the ones who get all defensive when your theology is found to be defective. I think you are one of the biggest advocates of God electing due to prescience. How about you answering the questions we asked of Richard? I'll just bet you would have to try to talk your way around them also... seeing as how it proves how faulty your open theist view is.