Brother Bob
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Hi James:
Hope all is well.
Hope all is well.
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In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists
- Thread starter examiningcalvinism
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examiningcalvinism
New Member
James
James,
If you two (Allan and James) need rest, that's understandable and we can resume whenever. But I made a flowchart that reflects what I believe the Bible is saying, and you can use that to formulate your sequence of questions. If you would use a similar flowchart to document your own timeline, that would also help.
James,
If you two (Allan and James) need rest, that's understandable and we can resume whenever. But I made a flowchart that reflects what I believe the Bible is saying, and you can use that to formulate your sequence of questions. If you would use a similar flowchart to document your own timeline, that would also help.
examiningcalvinism
New Member
This may be off the subject but...
This may be off the subject but...
if God has an alleged, "eternal flock of the Father" who alone has predetermined to save, and presuming that Job is in this flock, then why did Satan go to God and complain about a hedge of protection around Job? For if Calvinism was true, wouldn't the real "hedge" have been Unconditional Election? And if Job had Irresistible Grace, why would Satan have raised charges about what Job would do if Satan did this or that to him? After all, if he had Irresistible Grace, and if Satan knew it, then nothing he did to him could stand up to a grace that is irresistible.
This may be off the subject but...
if God has an alleged, "eternal flock of the Father" who alone has predetermined to save, and presuming that Job is in this flock, then why did Satan go to God and complain about a hedge of protection around Job? For if Calvinism was true, wouldn't the real "hedge" have been Unconditional Election? And if Job had Irresistible Grace, why would Satan have raised charges about what Job would do if Satan did this or that to him? After all, if he had Irresistible Grace, and if Satan knew it, then nothing he did to him could stand up to a grace that is irresistible.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello examiningcalvinism,
I do not mean to be hard on you, but you keep changing the rules and thereby dodge what is asked of you. You start with a detail post, others reply with details, you don't want detail, you want one thing at a time. I gave you one subject and you add 10. Lets make up our mind, and whatever you do please address others.
Well, being that I asked about when God elects "in Christ" and being that you never use the word elect, chosen, election then I do not see where you have answered anything. Let me ask for the 3rd time...
This I must ask. "Bride of Christ is foreknown in Christ "
What does this mean????? What is your understanding of forknow?
I do not mean to be hard on you, but you keep changing the rules and thereby dodge what is asked of you. You start with a detail post, others reply with details, you don't want detail, you want one thing at a time. I gave you one subject and you add 10. Lets make up our mind, and whatever you do please address others.
I love list/order/flowcharts. This is where bad logic breaks down. I have to hand you this....you are the 1st free-willer to make a list on their own. Must of the time, its like pulling teeth to have them give a order.
1) Christ seeks/draws/calls Matt 22:14 lost in Adam ->
2) lost in Adam hears Gospel ->
3) lost in Adam gets faith from Gospel Rom 10:17 ->
4) lost in Adam believes in Christ ->
5) lost in Adam gets sealed in Christ Eph 1:13 ->
6) sealed in Christ gets redeemed -> How can one be sealed, before they are redeemed? Are you not owned 1st??
7) redeemed gets regenerated -> This has to be a 1st. I have never seen a free-willer place believers being redeemed before regen.
8) regenerated is made born again -> Here is another 1st from a freewiller. Ren and born again two dif things. I don't have a problem with them being two, but most free-willers will. However...we need to move 7-8 up to 1 and 2.
9)born again becomes new creature -> 3 steps in the new birth. Not even a Calvinist believes this.
new creature gets new heart and new spirit -> How can you have life, without a spirit? Would not the spirit come before the birth?
10)new creature becomes adopted calling Jehovah "Abba Father" ->
11) Adopted becomes one spirit with Christ in the Body of Christ as Bride of Christ 1Cor 6:16-17 ->
12) Bride of Christ made spotless and holy in blood of Lamb Eph 5:27->
13) Bride of Christ is foreknown in Christ -> ?????? what is this?
14)Foreknown in Christ is predestined for conformity to Christ, a calling to serve, Justification and Glorification Rom 8:29-30 ->
15)The Called serves Christ in capacity predetermined in Christ from eternity past, 2 Tim 1:9, which is eternally bestowed in the Beloved Eph 1:5-6. The Called? In point one you say men are called. This is before salvation. So, whoever is called serves? This has to be bad wording on your part.
Well, being that I asked about when God elects "in Christ" and being that you never use the word elect, chosen, election then I do not see where you have answered anything. Let me ask for the 3rd time...
This I must ask. "Bride of Christ is foreknown in Christ "
What does this mean????? What is your understanding of forknow?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello Brother,Brother Bob said:
God is good. He has blessed and is blessing. Thanks for asking.
How are you?
examiningcalvinism
New Member
James
James,
I'm going over your response to the flowchart right now. I was hoping that the flowchart would serve as a good launching pad for discussion between us, and I'm glad to see it bearing fruit. On a side note to your last question, the answer is Romans 8:28-29. 8:28 is addressing those who are in Christ, that love God and are called according to His purpose (the calling in relation to what Christians are called to do in Christ). Essentially, then, these in Christ, whom God has foreknown, He has predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, calling, justfication, glorication. In this way, the "to be" follows what is in Christ. I just wanted to let you know that I'm online and addressing the flowchart now, and I may flowchart what I believe Calvinism teaches. Allow 15 minutes to respond.
James,
I'm going over your response to the flowchart right now. I was hoping that the flowchart would serve as a good launching pad for discussion between us, and I'm glad to see it bearing fruit. On a side note to your last question, the answer is Romans 8:28-29. 8:28 is addressing those who are in Christ, that love God and are called according to His purpose (the calling in relation to what Christians are called to do in Christ). Essentially, then, these in Christ, whom God has foreknown, He has predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, calling, justfication, glorication. In this way, the "to be" follows what is in Christ. I just wanted to let you know that I'm online and addressing the flowchart now, and I may flowchart what I believe Calvinism teaches. Allow 15 minutes to respond.
Brother Bob
New Member
I am doing very well. Winters are rough for me, the blood don't flow very good in the cold.
examiningcalvinism
New Member
James
James,
For clarity, blue = Examining Calvinism, red = JArthur
1) Christ seeks/draws/calls Matt 22:14 lost in Adam ->
2) lost in Adam hears Gospel ->
3) lost in Adam gets faith from Gospel Rom 10:17 -> (Prevenient Grace of Illumination, whereby the Holy Spirit convicts consciences, pierces hearts, pricks hearts (Acts 26:14) and opens hearts to believe (Acts 16:14), as opposed to changes hearts with a new heart which doesn't come until after you are sealed in Chirst per Eph 1:13.)
4) lost in Adam believes in Christ ->
5) lost in Adam gets sealed in Christ Eph 1:13 ->
6) sealed in Christ gets redeemed -> How can one be sealed, before they are redeemed? Are you not owned 1st??
(As I’m sure that you are aware, Arminianism and 4-Point Calvinism teaches a Universal Purchase but not Universal Redemption. Redemption is in Christ. Romans 8:1 teaches that in Christ, there is now no longer any condemnation. So in other words, you must become sealed in Christ in order to access redemption in Christ. I'm aware that 5-Pointers believe that they were redeemed at Calvary, before they were ever in Christ, which is a point that I obviously dispute on the basis of Romans 8:1.)
7) redeemed gets regenerated -> This has to be a 1st. I have never seen a free-willer place believers being redeemed before regen.
8) regenerated is made born again -> Here is another 1st from a freewiller. Ren and born again two dif things. I don't have a problem with them being two, but most free-willers will. However...we need to move 7-8 up to 1 and 2.
(I differentiate the Prevenient Grace of Illumination from the Regenerative Grace in Christ. The Prevenient Grace of Illumination is factored into Step 3. I have Regeneration after we are sealed in Christ on the basis of Eph 1:13)
9)born again becomes new creature -> 3 steps in the new birth. Not even a Calvinist believes this.
10) new creature gets new heart and new spirit -> How can you have life, without a spirit? Would not the spirit come before the birth?
Ezekiel 36:26 says that you receive a new heart and a new spirit, which I infer as being the product of the new birth, in regeneration.
10) new creature becomes adopted calling Jehovah "Abba Father" ->
11) Adopted becomes one spirit with Christ in the Body of Christ as Bride of Christ 1Cor 6:16-17 ->
12) Bride of Christ made spotless and holy in blood of Lamb Eph 5:27->
13) Bride of Christ is foreknown in Christ -> ?????? what is this?
(Romans 8:28-29. Verse 28 speaks of those who are in Christ, who love God and are called according to His purpose, meaning the Christian Calling according the eternal purpose that each Christian has in Christ. [More on this below] These who are in Christ, whom God did foreknow, He has predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, to receive their Calling in Christ, Justification and Glorification)
14)Foreknown in Christ is predestined for conformity to Christ, a calling to serve, Justification and Glorification Rom 8:29-30 ->
15)The Called serves Christ in capacity predetermined in Christ from eternity past, 2 Tim 1:9, which is eternally bestowed in the Beloved Eph 1:5-6. The Called? In point one you say men are called. This is before salvation. So, whoever is called serves? This has to be bad wording on your part.
(There are two Calls. There is the call to live IN Christ (Matthew 22:14), and there is a call to live FOR Christ. (Romans 8:28) We are called to live IN Christ when we receive the offer of salvation. We are called to live FOR Christ when we receive God’s Calling to do that which God has purposed for us in Christ, such as when a person is called to the Ministry, or called to become a Pastor. First you are called to become a Christian and then you are called to serve, that is, for edification of the Body of Christ and also for evangelization of the lost.)
James,
For clarity, blue = Examining Calvinism, red = JArthur
1) Christ seeks/draws/calls Matt 22:14 lost in Adam ->
2) lost in Adam hears Gospel ->
3) lost in Adam gets faith from Gospel Rom 10:17 -> (Prevenient Grace of Illumination, whereby the Holy Spirit convicts consciences, pierces hearts, pricks hearts (Acts 26:14) and opens hearts to believe (Acts 16:14), as opposed to changes hearts with a new heart which doesn't come until after you are sealed in Chirst per Eph 1:13.)
4) lost in Adam believes in Christ ->
5) lost in Adam gets sealed in Christ Eph 1:13 ->
6) sealed in Christ gets redeemed -> How can one be sealed, before they are redeemed? Are you not owned 1st??
(As I’m sure that you are aware, Arminianism and 4-Point Calvinism teaches a Universal Purchase but not Universal Redemption. Redemption is in Christ. Romans 8:1 teaches that in Christ, there is now no longer any condemnation. So in other words, you must become sealed in Christ in order to access redemption in Christ. I'm aware that 5-Pointers believe that they were redeemed at Calvary, before they were ever in Christ, which is a point that I obviously dispute on the basis of Romans 8:1.)
7) redeemed gets regenerated -> This has to be a 1st. I have never seen a free-willer place believers being redeemed before regen.
8) regenerated is made born again -> Here is another 1st from a freewiller. Ren and born again two dif things. I don't have a problem with them being two, but most free-willers will. However...we need to move 7-8 up to 1 and 2.
(I differentiate the Prevenient Grace of Illumination from the Regenerative Grace in Christ. The Prevenient Grace of Illumination is factored into Step 3. I have Regeneration after we are sealed in Christ on the basis of Eph 1:13)
9)born again becomes new creature -> 3 steps in the new birth. Not even a Calvinist believes this.
10) new creature gets new heart and new spirit -> How can you have life, without a spirit? Would not the spirit come before the birth?
Ezekiel 36:26 says that you receive a new heart and a new spirit, which I infer as being the product of the new birth, in regeneration.
10) new creature becomes adopted calling Jehovah "Abba Father" ->
11) Adopted becomes one spirit with Christ in the Body of Christ as Bride of Christ 1Cor 6:16-17 ->
12) Bride of Christ made spotless and holy in blood of Lamb Eph 5:27->
13) Bride of Christ is foreknown in Christ -> ?????? what is this?
(Romans 8:28-29. Verse 28 speaks of those who are in Christ, who love God and are called according to His purpose, meaning the Christian Calling according the eternal purpose that each Christian has in Christ. [More on this below] These who are in Christ, whom God did foreknow, He has predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, to receive their Calling in Christ, Justification and Glorification)
14)Foreknown in Christ is predestined for conformity to Christ, a calling to serve, Justification and Glorification Rom 8:29-30 ->
15)The Called serves Christ in capacity predetermined in Christ from eternity past, 2 Tim 1:9, which is eternally bestowed in the Beloved Eph 1:5-6. The Called? In point one you say men are called. This is before salvation. So, whoever is called serves? This has to be bad wording on your part.
(There are two Calls. There is the call to live IN Christ (Matthew 22:14), and there is a call to live FOR Christ. (Romans 8:28) We are called to live IN Christ when we receive the offer of salvation. We are called to live FOR Christ when we receive God’s Calling to do that which God has purposed for us in Christ, such as when a person is called to the Ministry, or called to become a Pastor. First you are called to become a Christian and then you are called to serve, that is, for edification of the Body of Christ and also for evangelization of the lost.)
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examiningcalvinism
New Member
in addition
in addition...
The lost in Adam are given: Atoning Grace, Prevenient Grace, Common Grace, General Call (in no particular order, this is just a summation)
Those sealed in Christ are gvien: Redemption, Regenerative Grace, New Birth (Born Again), New Creature with a new heart and a new spirit, The Indwelling, Conformity to the Image of Christ, the Christian Calling according to our unique purpose in Christ, Justification, Glorification. (in no particular order, this is just a summation on what's in this category)
(By the way, I'm fully aware of your pending question, but I've delayed answering it until the flowchart is resolved, because once the flowchart is resolved, that will become a big step towards reconciling the issues of your question.)
in addition...
The lost in Adam are given: Atoning Grace, Prevenient Grace, Common Grace, General Call (in no particular order, this is just a summation)
Those sealed in Christ are gvien: Redemption, Regenerative Grace, New Birth (Born Again), New Creature with a new heart and a new spirit, The Indwelling, Conformity to the Image of Christ, the Christian Calling according to our unique purpose in Christ, Justification, Glorification. (in no particular order, this is just a summation on what's in this category)
(By the way, I'm fully aware of your pending question, but I've delayed answering it until the flowchart is resolved, because once the flowchart is resolved, that will become a big step towards reconciling the issues of your question.)
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reformedbeliever
New Member
examiningcalvinism said:
How many times do you want me to comment on it? And is this your way of avoiding my question to you? I've answered yours, now answer mine.... without trying to go around it. Grace and peace.
examiningcalvinism
New Member
Reformed Believer
I believe that I've answered it.
I believe that I've answered it.
reformedbeliever
New Member
1. Did God allow some of mankind come into existence knowing that they would never believe? Yes or no
2. If God knows they would never believe, can they believe? yes or no
3. If you answer yes to number 2, did God allow some of mankind to come into existence without a chance to believe? He knows they will not believe so they can not believe. yes or no. I'll bet you will avoid that.
2. If God knows they would never believe, can they believe? yes or no
3. If you answer yes to number 2, did God allow some of mankind to come into existence without a chance to believe? He knows they will not believe so they can not believe. yes or no. I'll bet you will avoid that.
reformedbeliever
New Member
Brother Bob said:
Well I truly hope you get to feeling better Bob. I too have a really tough time with the cold wet fronts that come through. My failed back syndrome is pretty tough. I could be a weather man.... predicting when the fronts are coming through.
I have just gotten back from the gym, and I'm pretty stove up, so I'm fixin to go to the back patio and enjoy the hot tub for a bit. Why not come and help Richard out a bit? We are ganging up on him. :tongue3:
You take care Bob. I miss you. You know though, when my sore thumb got better I kinda missed it too...:laugh:
examiningcalvinism
New Member
Reformed Believer
1. Did God allow some of mankind to come into existence knowing that they would never believe? Yes or no
2. If God knows they would never believe, can they believe? yes or no
The "rich man" had an offer and opportunity which constitutes having a chance, as already stated.
3. If you answer yes to number 2, did God allow some of mankind to come into existence without a chance to believe? No, see above. He knows they will not believe so they can not believe. yes or no. I'll bet you will avoid that.
This goes right back to you thinking that foreknowledge is determinism. Have many ways do you wish for me to explain this to you?
1. Did God allow some of mankind to come into existence knowing that they would never believe? Yes or no
2. If God knows they would never believe, can they believe? yes or no
The "rich man" had an offer and opportunity which constitutes having a chance, as already stated.
3. If you answer yes to number 2, did God allow some of mankind to come into existence without a chance to believe? No, see above. He knows they will not believe so they can not believe. yes or no. I'll bet you will avoid that.
This goes right back to you thinking that foreknowledge is determinism. Have many ways do you wish for me to explain this to you?
Jarthur001
Active Member
hello examiningcalvinism,
For clarity, blue = Examining Calvinism, red = JArthur
Right you are.
Now I ask you again....Does God chose us AFTER we choose to believe and are "IN CHRIST"??? Does not the Bible teach us the Christ chooses us 1st? Does not the Bible teach us that the choosing wa before we were born?
In Christ...James
For clarity, blue = Examining Calvinism, red = JArthur
Right you are.
Now I ask you again....Does God chose us AFTER we choose to believe and are "IN CHRIST"??? Does not the Bible teach us the Christ chooses us 1st? Does not the Bible teach us that the choosing wa before we were born?
In Christ...James
Jarthur001
Active Member
hummmmexaminingcalvinism said:
If God sees someone NOT believing at any time in their life, and this is before they are born...and when they are born if that same man DOES believe, then God really did not see the end of all things....right?
And this would have nothing to do with determinism. This is the good old foreknowledge as viewed by free-willers. Notice...God is just knowing or not knowing....and this is the view of Free-willism.
Where as in Calvinism, God knows for He is in charge of all things. A Calvinist God is King and yes determines all things. The Free-will God is bound to mans will. This God is weak in that He cannot stop man by changing what He has already foresaw. Freewill determines all things in this view.
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reformedbeliever
New Member
Your view of election based upon forsight just failed Richard. You gave the answers I thought you would give. They are not logical are they?
Now if God in His sovereignty, based upon His decrees, choose some of mankind out of sinful humanity, that was headed to hell, for His glory, wouldn't that make a little more sense? Seeing as how that is the way the Bible explains it?
Sure we both have the problem with God allowing some of mankind to come into existence without the ability of coming to faith, and to be sent to hell. But at least God explains that in His Word.
Doesn't the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel unto honor, and one unto dishonor?
He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.
This kinda makes us have to trust Him doesn't it? What other choice do you really have Richard? Are you going to still try to appologize for God?
When you are honest about it Richard. We both will have to ask God why He didn't save em all.
Now if God in His sovereignty, based upon His decrees, choose some of mankind out of sinful humanity, that was headed to hell, for His glory, wouldn't that make a little more sense? Seeing as how that is the way the Bible explains it?
Sure we both have the problem with God allowing some of mankind to come into existence without the ability of coming to faith, and to be sent to hell. But at least God explains that in His Word.
Doesn't the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel unto honor, and one unto dishonor?
He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.
This kinda makes us have to trust Him doesn't it? What other choice do you really have Richard? Are you going to still try to appologize for God?
When you are honest about it Richard. We both will have to ask God why He didn't save em all.
examiningcalvinism
New Member
James
James,
You wrote: “what does ‘in Christ’ mean other than a phrase saying they are saved?”
Only when you become sealed in Christ, do you become “saved,” and receive all that God the Father has bestowed in Christ, namely, redemption (Rom 8:1), Regeneration, Born Again, The Indwelling, Eternal Life, the Christian Calling, ect., and I've listed these in no particular order.
You wrote: “Do you elect me as mayor after i'm "in Office"?”
Rather than to address an irrelevent analogy, I will say that the Bible teaches that God the Father elects you TO adoption on the basis on the basis of your UNION with His Son (i.e. chosen in Christ), which union occurs when you are sealed in His Body as “one spirit” with Him. (1 Cor 6:16-17) Having become in Christ, you were foreknown in Christ, as per Romans 8:28-29. That passage is addressed to those in Christ, and it is those who are in Christ that were foreknown in Him, and predestined to all that God the Father has in store for Christians.
You wrote: “I have chosen you out of the world”
This is a quote from John 17 in terms of Jesus electing His disciples.
You wrote: “Now I ask you again....Does God chose us AFTER we choose to believe and are "IN CHRIST"??? Does not the Bible teach us the Christ chooses us 1st? Does not the Bible teach us that the choosing wa before we were born?”
After we choose to believe in Christ, we are sealed in Christ. Ephesians 1:13 states: “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise...” When you are sealed in Christ, you become part of the Body of Christ. When you become part of the Body of Christ, you become part of an Elect body that the Father has chosen for adoption, holiness, salvation, eternal life, ect.
You wrote: “This God is weak in that He cannot stop man by changing what He has already foresaw. Freewill determines all things in this view.”
1st Corinthians 10:13 states: “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.” This verse invalidates Determinism, and you have characterized God as "weak," solely on the basis that He chooses not to determine every choice of man, though He could do this, and is able to do so. God is able to give everyone irresistible grace, but instead, He gives prevenient grace when He evangelizes those who are the old creature in Adam. If I had my choice, it would be that God would give everyone irresistible grace, as you would likely agree, but God’s ways are not Richard's or James' ways.
Now my question for you:
Question to James: Do you believe that God the Father chose you in Himself from before the foundation of the world, in an eternal flock of the Father, in order that you may be given and chosen to be in His Son? (Yes/No)
Question to James: If Ephesians 1:4 meant that God the Father chose "the elect" to be in Christ, then in whom were these elect chosen in order to be qualified for election in the Son? The purpose of this question is to determine whether Calvinism truly does teach a primary election in the Father, with a resulting secondary election in the Son. I hope that Saturday will bring me a direct answer to this question.
James,
You wrote: “what does ‘in Christ’ mean other than a phrase saying they are saved?”
Only when you become sealed in Christ, do you become “saved,” and receive all that God the Father has bestowed in Christ, namely, redemption (Rom 8:1), Regeneration, Born Again, The Indwelling, Eternal Life, the Christian Calling, ect., and I've listed these in no particular order.
You wrote: “Do you elect me as mayor after i'm "in Office"?”
Rather than to address an irrelevent analogy, I will say that the Bible teaches that God the Father elects you TO adoption on the basis on the basis of your UNION with His Son (i.e. chosen in Christ), which union occurs when you are sealed in His Body as “one spirit” with Him. (1 Cor 6:16-17) Having become in Christ, you were foreknown in Christ, as per Romans 8:28-29. That passage is addressed to those in Christ, and it is those who are in Christ that were foreknown in Him, and predestined to all that God the Father has in store for Christians.
You wrote: “I have chosen you out of the world”
This is a quote from John 17 in terms of Jesus electing His disciples.
You wrote: “Now I ask you again....Does God chose us AFTER we choose to believe and are "IN CHRIST"??? Does not the Bible teach us the Christ chooses us 1st? Does not the Bible teach us that the choosing wa before we were born?”
After we choose to believe in Christ, we are sealed in Christ. Ephesians 1:13 states: “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise...” When you are sealed in Christ, you become part of the Body of Christ. When you become part of the Body of Christ, you become part of an Elect body that the Father has chosen for adoption, holiness, salvation, eternal life, ect.
You wrote: “This God is weak in that He cannot stop man by changing what He has already foresaw. Freewill determines all things in this view.”
1st Corinthians 10:13 states: “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.” This verse invalidates Determinism, and you have characterized God as "weak," solely on the basis that He chooses not to determine every choice of man, though He could do this, and is able to do so. God is able to give everyone irresistible grace, but instead, He gives prevenient grace when He evangelizes those who are the old creature in Adam. If I had my choice, it would be that God would give everyone irresistible grace, as you would likely agree, but God’s ways are not Richard's or James' ways.
Now my question for you:
Question to James: Do you believe that God the Father chose you in Himself from before the foundation of the world, in an eternal flock of the Father, in order that you may be given and chosen to be in His Son? (Yes/No)
Question to James: If Ephesians 1:4 meant that God the Father chose "the elect" to be in Christ, then in whom were these elect chosen in order to be qualified for election in the Son? The purpose of this question is to determine whether Calvinism truly does teach a primary election in the Father, with a resulting secondary election in the Son. I hope that Saturday will bring me a direct answer to this question.
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reformedbeliever
New Member
I'm sure that right about now you are saying it was history for God. Well Richard, I'm living in that "history" right now. There are many more who do not trust Jesus that are living that "history" right now. If that history that God knows...... says that a man will never believe, then that man at this point in time in "history" has no chance of believeing.
examiningcalvinism
New Member
Reformed Believer
If you want to know about God being the Sovereign Potter over the clay, then explain it to me from the perspective of God's own words at Jeremiah 18:1-13:
Jeremiah 18:1-13
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.’ But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’ “Therefore thus says the LORD, ‘Ask now among the nations, who ever heard the like of this?The virgin of Israel has done a most appalling thing.’”
Did God measure up to your standards?
If you want to know about God being the Sovereign Potter over the clay, then explain it to me from the perspective of God's own words at Jeremiah 18:1-13:
Jeremiah 18:1-13
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.’ But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’ “Therefore thus says the LORD, ‘Ask now among the nations, who ever heard the like of this?The virgin of Israel has done a most appalling thing.’”
Did God measure up to your standards?
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