Well, let's say that I have more faith in Jesus' motives.
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In Defense of Social Justice
- Thread starter Zog Has-fallen
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Zog Has-fallen
Member
Proverbs 16:2
All one’s ways are pure in one’s own eyes,
but the measurer of motives is the Lord.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
An individual asks Jesus how he can inherit eternal life. Jesus answers the individual with an individual example, the hero being the single Samaritan. You try to turn this passage into one about nations and politics and war. Such eisegesis we can all do without, as it is just the kind of thing that leads people far astray.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Do you imagine Revelation 18 constitutes the entire Bible? If you are asking whether worldly socialism is the only extremely greedy, extremely oppressive system in which those at the top benefit to the detriment of others, then the answer is no.
But there is a wider issue which you seem intent on ignoring. You seem willing to excuse or embrace a number of antichrists, including Islam, communism, and socialism, because of a fear of playing into the hands of The Antichrist. That is a terrible strategy for the Christian.
I am not advocating the embrace of any antichrist or godless system, but I am suggesting that people can be herded by various antichrists right into the arms of another. Arguing, 'My antichrist is better than your antichrist!' is sheer madness for Christians, but fits the world to a tee.
Mikey
Active Member
What is the definition of Social Justice that you agree with?
Zog Has-fallen
Member
Unanswered.
Our current economic system has been described as socialism for the super rich (where billionaires live off subsidies from the State) and tough love for everyone else. That's not my definition of socialism. Evidently, it is your definition.
My definition of socialism is people-ism, community-ism and communal-ism , guaranteed in principle by Isaiah 58:6-7, by which I mean justice and liberty for all, not just for one privileged class.
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Zog Has-fallen
Member
The Essence of being a Christian Communalist
Christian communalism is the thesis that the purpose of government is to restrain evil (Romans 13:1-7) and that the best government actually attainable by mortals would be guided by Christian principles. Christian communalists openly declare that paying taxes to maintain the essentials of a fair society is a moral requirement. Additionally, the laws of a just society would mandate that everyone is to be treated equally and fairly. If the Christian principles of a Christian communalist government could be respected, then the golden rule would guarantee that widows and orphans would be helped.
Isaiah 58:6-7
Is this not the fast that I have chosen:
To loose the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the heavy burdens,
To let the oppressed go free,
And that you break every yoke?
Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out;
When you see the naked, that you cover him,
And not hide yourself from your own flesh? NKJV
Luke 3:10-14
And the crowds asked him, “What then shall we do?” And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.” Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Collect no more than you are authorized to do.” Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”
Acts 2:44-47
And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Acts 20:34-35
You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: “It is more blessed to give than to receive.”
Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
Psalms 82:3-4
Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
Proverbs 8:20
I walk in the way of righteousness, in the paths of justice.
Proverbs 17:23
The wicked accepts a bribe in secret to pervert the ways of justice.
Proverbs 18:5
It is not good to be partial to the wicked or to deprive the righteous of justice.
Proverbs 19:28
A corrupt witness mocks at justice, and the mouth of the wicked gulps down evil.
Proverbs 21:3
To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.
Proverbs 21:15
When justice is done, it is a joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers.
Proverbs 31:8-9
Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.
Isaiah 1:17
learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause.
Isaiah 1:21
How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.
Isaiah 1:23
Your princes are rebels and companions of thieves. Everyone loves a bribe and runs after gifts. They do not bring justice to the fatherless, and the widow's cause does not come to them.
Psalms 112:1-10
Praise the Lord!
Blessed is the man who fears the Lord,
who greatly delights in his commandments!
His offspring will be mighty in the land;
the generation of the upright will be blessed.
Wealth and riches are in his house,
and his righteousness endures forever.
Light dawns in the darkness for the upright;
he is gracious, merciful, and righteous.
It is well with the man who deals generously and lends;
who conducts his affairs with justice.
For the righteous will never be moved;
he will be remembered forever.
He is not afraid of bad news;
his heart is firm, trusting in the Lord.
His heart is steady; he will not be afraid,
until he looks in triumph on his adversaries.
He has distributed freely; he has given to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever;
his horn is exalted in honor.
The wicked man sees it and is angry;
he gnashes his teeth and melts away;
the desire of the wicked will perish!
James 5:1-6
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you.
Leviticus 19:13
You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired worker shall not remain with you all night until the morning.
Social justice means justice for everyone, not just you
The Preamble to the United States Constitution states:
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
This expresses noble Christian principles. Who wouldn't love to see Justice exalted? To "promote the general Welfare" means to promote what is in the best interest of everyone.
The second sentence of The Declaration of Independence states:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
To be equal before God means that Justice is to be applied equally for all people on Earth.
The last line of the Declaration of Independence affirms: "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
These are all mighty commitments to the public good.
Taxing and Spending Clause Allows Funds For Maintaining A Fair Society
The Taxing and Spending Clause of the United States Constitution contains provisions known as the General Welfare Clause and the Uniformity Clause. Article I, Section 8, Clause 1, grants the federal government of the United States its power of taxation. While authorizing Congress to levy taxes, this clause permits the levying of taxes for two purposes only: to pay the debts of the United States, and to provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States.
Christian communalism is the thesis that the purpose of government is to restrain evil (Romans 13:1-7) and that the best government actually attainable by mortals would be guided by Christian principles. Christian communalists openly declare that paying taxes to maintain the essentials of a fair society is a moral requirement. Additionally, the laws of a just society would mandate that everyone is to be treated equally and fairly. If the Christian principles of a Christian communalist government could be respected, then the golden rule would guarantee that widows and orphans would be helped.
Isaiah 58:6-7
Is this not the fast that I have chosen:
To loose the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the heavy burdens,
To let the oppressed go free,
And that you break every yoke?
Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out;
When you see the naked, that you cover him,
And not hide yourself from your own flesh? NKJV
Luke 3:10-14
And the crowds asked him, “What then shall we do?” And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.” Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Collect no more than you are authorized to do.” Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”
Acts 2:44-47
And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Acts 20:34-35
You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: “It is more blessed to give than to receive.”
Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
Psalms 82:3-4
Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
Proverbs 8:20
I walk in the way of righteousness, in the paths of justice.
Proverbs 17:23
The wicked accepts a bribe in secret to pervert the ways of justice.
Proverbs 18:5
It is not good to be partial to the wicked or to deprive the righteous of justice.
Proverbs 19:28
A corrupt witness mocks at justice, and the mouth of the wicked gulps down evil.
Proverbs 21:3
To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.
Proverbs 21:15
When justice is done, it is a joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers.
Proverbs 31:8-9
Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.
Isaiah 1:17
learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause.
Isaiah 1:21
How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.
Isaiah 1:23
Your princes are rebels and companions of thieves. Everyone loves a bribe and runs after gifts. They do not bring justice to the fatherless, and the widow's cause does not come to them.
Psalms 112:1-10
Praise the Lord!
Blessed is the man who fears the Lord,
who greatly delights in his commandments!
His offspring will be mighty in the land;
the generation of the upright will be blessed.
Wealth and riches are in his house,
and his righteousness endures forever.
Light dawns in the darkness for the upright;
he is gracious, merciful, and righteous.
It is well with the man who deals generously and lends;
who conducts his affairs with justice.
For the righteous will never be moved;
he will be remembered forever.
He is not afraid of bad news;
his heart is firm, trusting in the Lord.
His heart is steady; he will not be afraid,
until he looks in triumph on his adversaries.
He has distributed freely; he has given to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever;
his horn is exalted in honor.
The wicked man sees it and is angry;
he gnashes his teeth and melts away;
the desire of the wicked will perish!
James 5:1-6
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you.
Leviticus 19:13
You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired worker shall not remain with you all night until the morning.
Social justice means justice for everyone, not just you
The Preamble to the United States Constitution states:
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
This expresses noble Christian principles. Who wouldn't love to see Justice exalted? To "promote the general Welfare" means to promote what is in the best interest of everyone.
The second sentence of The Declaration of Independence states:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
To be equal before God means that Justice is to be applied equally for all people on Earth.
The last line of the Declaration of Independence affirms: "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
These are all mighty commitments to the public good.
Taxing and Spending Clause Allows Funds For Maintaining A Fair Society
The Taxing and Spending Clause of the United States Constitution contains provisions known as the General Welfare Clause and the Uniformity Clause. Article I, Section 8, Clause 1, grants the federal government of the United States its power of taxation. While authorizing Congress to levy taxes, this clause permits the levying of taxes for two purposes only: to pay the debts of the United States, and to provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States.
Zog Has-fallen
Member
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Seventh-day Adventist leadership, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Zog Has-fallen
Member
Zog Has-fallen
Member
I believe that you have been victimized by a fear that is all imaginary. Why do you imagine that the endtime world order (Revelation 18) is socialist?
Revelation 18:24 (KJV) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Christians have no part in Babylon as Revelation 18:24 proves. It is the communist Seventh-day Millerites who will be/are the bosses in Babylon. You don't hear of any charities of the communist party/Seventh-day Millerites.
Christians have no part in Babylon as Revelation 18:24 proves. It is the communist Seventh-day Millerites who will be/are the bosses in Babylon. You don't hear of any charities of the communist party/Seventh-day Millerites.
Zog Has-fallen
Member
I did not claim to have exegeted the passage. There is no dispute about Christ's meaning. And I'm confident that many Bible commentaries recognize Samaritans being despised among the Jews. Indisputably, Christ responded to the prevailing bigotry courageously by exalting that one Samaritan as a perfect illustration of what it means to be a true neighbor. If Christ were to teach the same lesson today in a modern context, it would be just as relevant politically. Christ could tell the story from the victim's point of view. The robbers might have been heard on TV plotting to attack a Venezuelan socialist and boasting of their plans for the loot to be seized. And the someone supposedly deserving to be despised, that defends the socialist, could be identified as a Seventh-day Millerite. And who would be the modern-day Pharisees? Most certainly they're the ones that cross to the other side of the road, refusing to get involved at any level, even to watch the confessions of the robbers on youtube.
Revelation 18:1-8
After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory. And he called out with a mighty voice,
“Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!
She has become a dwelling place for demons,
a haunt for every unclean spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
For all nations have drunk
the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality,
and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her,
and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living.”
Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,
“Come out of her, my people,
lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues;
for her sins are heaped high as heaven,
and God has remembered her iniquities.
Pay her back as she herself has paid back others,
and repay her double for her deeds;
mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed.
As she glorified herself and lived in luxury,
so give her a like measure of torment and mourning,
since in her heart she says,
‘I sit as a queen,
I am no widow,
and mourning I shall never see.’
For this reason her plagues will come in a single day,
death and mourning and famine,
and she will be burned up with fire;
for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her.”
And you misrepresented the passage because it clearly states that Christians suffer under Babylon, which the communist Seventh-day Millerites deny.
Zog Has-fallen
Member
The passage I cited (Revelation 18:1-8) clearly teaches that God is calling His people out of Babylon. Even Seventh-day Adventists understand that. Yes, true Christians suffer under Babylon. And there is no disputing what apostate Christians do. Furthermore, concerning glaring misrepresentations, I am a true Christian communalist, not an unbelieving communist.
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That's a lie. You cited Revelation 18. You are a communist. Period.
We need to remember that by quoting from Jesus Olivet prophecy in Rev. 1, with its statements of the time being "at hand" the prophecy of Revelation is primarily concerned with the coming AD 70 destruction. Jerusalem is the primary target for the Babylon prophecy. Note that Jesus' warning to the scribes & Pharisees is effected in Rev. 18:24.
These prophecies directly concerning Israel have their application down the ages, obviously to Rome, but also to the various Mediterranean empires, including Islam, Eastern & Catholic Christianity, the USSR & the Western empires of Britain & America. God brings them all down. Not forgetting modern Israel.
Christians should NOT stand with their corrupt nations but against them. The suffering of believers is prophesied & expected, sadly. As far as this temporal world is concerned, we are not on the winning side.
While I am not familiar with Millerites - & suspect their interpretation of prophecy & the SDA doctrinaire vegetarianism - they would have been persecuted along with the anabaptists by all the established denominations.
Note that the anabaptists are accused of being communists by the CofE Prayer Book.
These prophecies directly concerning Israel have their application down the ages, obviously to Rome, but also to the various Mediterranean empires, including Islam, Eastern & Catholic Christianity, the USSR & the Western empires of Britain & America. God brings them all down. Not forgetting modern Israel.
Christians should NOT stand with their corrupt nations but against them. The suffering of believers is prophesied & expected, sadly. As far as this temporal world is concerned, we are not on the winning side.
While I am not familiar with Millerites - & suspect their interpretation of prophecy & the SDA doctrinaire vegetarianism - they would have been persecuted along with the anabaptists by all the established denominations.
Note that the anabaptists are accused of being communists by the CofE Prayer Book.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
And I never accused you of exegeting the passage; rather you yanked it out of context, ignored its obvious intent, and instead applied it far beyond spiritual reason. You continue to do it with this post. No kingdom is going to receive eternal life. Jesus’ kingdom is not of this world. You cannot find eternal life through the politics of this world system. Conflating the two is a surefire way to be led astray.
Zog Has-fallen
Member
I'd like to learn more about that but CofE seems to be a misspelling. Please say more.
Thank you Covenanter. I think that you're unusually insightful.
I believe that there's a better interpretation of the prophecy and would love to discuss it with you in the context of your preterism. Unfortunately this thread, which is devoted to social justice, is not the most logical location. Nevertheless, I would be thrilled if we could come together in a meeting of minds on the already accepted foundation where we both stand, which just happens to be the thread Satan Crushed Shortly.
Zog, Covenanter is an Englishman. CofE is the abbreviation for Church of England aka the Anglican Church aka (here in the States) the Episcopalians.
I agree.
2Ti 3:1 KJV - This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 KJV - For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 KJV - Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 KJV - Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 KJV - Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Christians are instructed to "turn away" from a whole host of sinners - not embrace them and invite them into their home. Unfortunately, these sinners are shout-out by many Christian churches and organizations as the target of their ministry.
The gathering together of believers is for their sake, to be refreshed in the Lord through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
If the unsaved chose to attend, they should be made so uncomfortable from the preaching of the convicting word of God that they walkout or are brought to repentance by the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:46 KJV - And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 KJV - Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
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