In Heb. 4, the Sabbath points to rest,

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

[GE: If you're a Jew, DHK, Jesus is none of yours; and if you're a ~Gentile believer~, DHK, the Resurrected Christ of God is none of yours BY THE SAME RULE OF LAW! Therefore, are you an Israelite DHK, because only if you are, has God Raised the Christ whom you have crucified, for YOU!
For thus saith the SCRIPTURE]

Yes, it was a command given to Israel and their generations forever.

You play games of semantics.
Paul prayed for the nation of Israel that they might be saved, and yet he also claimed to be of Israel. Those who live in that land surrounding Jerusalem given to the Jews in 1948 by the UN make up the nation of Israel. The word "Jew" is a synonym, though used in the slang and originates from the tribe "Judah."
Paul, from the tribe of Benjamin, an Israelite, went "to the Jew first and then to the Gentile."
We read that expression over and over again in the Bible.
The three: Christianity, Israel, and Gentile are clearly delineated for us by Paul:

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
--Are you a Jew or of "the church of God"?
Are of an Israelite or of "the church of God"?
You cannot claim both just as you cannot claim to be both Muslim and Christian at the same time. You must choose.
The nation of Israel now believes in a false religion called Judaism and worship a false god. If you call yourself an "Israelite" you do not worship the God of the Bible, for they reject Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

<<You play games of semantics.>>

No games, DHK, This,
"Of this man (David's) seed, God, according to His Promise (God's Covenant) raised up unto Israel, a Saviour, Jesus."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In short, your responses are absolute nonsense! Be honest! The "or" is transition between the diffferent watches not that one is inclusive of the other. Christ may come in the first watch (opse 6 to 9 p.m) OR in the second watch (9-12 pm) OR in the third watch (12-3) or in the last watch (proii - 3-6 a.m.)
Honest scholars admit this is an obvious reference to the four watches of the night. Your dishonest scholarly shows you are motivated by false doctrine so you mishandle the word of God to make it fit your theories.

1) There is nothing about ~watches~ said or ~designated~, only about WHEN the Master may come and find the “servants”, —“workers”, “BUSY WATCHING” = “VIGILANT” = “WORKING”, and not sleeping on the job like an untrustworthy labourer / servant during WORKING hours mainly DAYLIGHT hours. (“The night is coming on when no one works.”)

2) The Master commanded “the porter to watch, Watch ye! For ye know NOT WHEN the Master cometh … Watch ye, lest coming suddenly the Master find you sleeping—and what I say unto you, I say unto ALL (the servants / workers), WATCH = WORK = don’t sleep while you are supposed to WORK.”

3) Therefore the day-cycle of a workers’ day is the main factor which—to use your words, ~designates~ “~transition between the different watches~”. Which means the Master may come “on the one hand either [eh] late day [opse] or [eh] until midnight [mesonuktion Accusative], or, [eh] in the cock-crow morning of night [alektorophohnias] or [eh] early morning until noon [prohї] on the other hand”. In other words (versus your conclusion), ‘opse’ and ‘mesonuktion’ are reciprocally ~inclusive~, while ‘alektorophohnias’ and ‘prohї’ are reciprocally ~inclusive~.

 

[DHK]

[GE: If you're a Jew, DHK, Jesus is none of yours; and if you're a ~Gentile believer~, DHK, the Resurrected Christ of God is none of yours BY THE SAME RULE OF LAW! Therefore, are you an Israelite DHK, because only if you are, has God Raised the Christ whom you have crucified, for YOU!
For thus saith the SCRIPTURE]

This is utter nonsense.

<<You play games of semantics.>>

No games, DHK, This,
"Of this man (David's) seed, God, according to His Promise (God's Covenant) raised up unto Israel, a Saviour, Jesus."

I am not a Jew/Israelite, and neither are you. If so, tell me which tribe you are from: Gad or Asher?
Or maybe you are from Dan or Manasseh, the two that went into idolatry and are missing in Revelation 7. Which tribe Gerhard? You are not of Israel, and never were!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

During the day time people do no sleep. It is during the night they sleep. Hence, the four watches of the night are the times that laborers would not be watching. So your point is pointless.

<<During the day time people do no sleep.>>
Exactly!! The warning is against day-time sleeping! Thanks!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Both verb and participle are Aorist tense showing identical action.

This is a 'rule' I have never seen. This is a 'rule' ruled out by the very essence of the Greek Aorist Participle itself. It's sheer nonsense and untruth per se. This is an untruth broadcasting its untruth itself. What you are saying in good Greek grammatical parlance simply would have been the Greek PRESENT Participle, ~he rising, appeared~ at the same time. Shame on you!

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree with your assessment. Where I disagree is the particular day under the "new" covenant that celebrate our rest in Christ. The difference between DHK and myself is that he says the sabbath has been done away in Christ, and I say the "seventh" day sabbath has been done away in Christ. So in essence we both agree that your Saturdayism is wrong and has been abolished.

One is free under the new coveantant to regard either Sat/Sun as their Sabbath, but cannot claim that only their chosen day is the right one, and really not able to make it a badgehood of salvation as the SDA does!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Find any New Testament Greek scholar that would agree with what you just said. Jesus does not agree with what you just said. Opse is not used "from midday to midnight the late-of-day" and proii is not used "from midnight to miday the early-of-day." This is your own imagination at work rather than scholarship of any sort. The united opinion of scholarly research is that these are the four watches of then night rather than two as you are claiming.


You are just proving what I said. It does not matter what evidence is placed before you as you will manipulate God's Word to suite your unbiblical dogma.


It does not change the fact that opse still refers to a time period AFTER the close of the previous day rather than late in that day.

Re: <<Find any New Testament Greek scholar that would agree with what you just said.>>

I know much better than you I won’t find one. And you know just as well as I do why. Because all New Testament Greek scholars are Sunday believing— Sunday Resurrection believing. And I’m not. Even the Sabbatharians of the present age are Sunday Resurrection believing. And I am their sole adversary of the present age.

I have TWO Sureties for my stance, The Word of God, written, the Scriptures, and the Word of God Alive, Jesus Christ. Jesus does not agree with what I just said. The Scriptures agree with what Jesus said.

Thus you, claiming. “~Opse is not used "from midday to midnight the late-of-day" and proii is not used "from midnight to miday the early-of-day"~” is making a laughingstock of yourself and I have all—ALL—, ~lexicographic witness~ in the world, to prove that you do. This claim of yours is your own imagination at work rather than scholarship of any sort. Because the united opinion of scholarly research is that ‘Opse’ is used ‘from midday to midnight the late-of-day’; and ‘prohї’ is used ‘from midnight to midday the early-of-day’ while neither ‘opse’ nor ‘prohї’ necessarily or only, ~designates~, “~the four watches of the night~”, but rather, ‘opse’ not necessarily or only but normally and usually designates ‘from midday to midnight the late-of-day’; and ‘prohї’ not necessarily or only but normally and usually designates ‘from midnight to midday the early-of-day’.


Gauranteed. Challenge me with contrary quotes from New Testament or Classic or Late or whatever Greek scholars!! Please do!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

What in the world are you talking about? I never said that opse proves that Christ rose after the "last watch between 3 a.m. to 6 am." I said it proves this use of opse proves that it can be translated "after" the end of the Sabbath - that is all I said. 6.p.m to 9 p.m. is AFTER the Sabbath. The word proee and "dawn" prove it occurred between 3 am to 6 a.m.

Asking me what I am talking, but cock-sure telling me what I talk. Now how much would that make sense to you?


Never mind. I can understand this of what you say, "~opse proves that it can be translated "after" the end of the Sabbath~".

What I cannot understand though, is how ‘opse’ proves that ‘opse’ can be translated "after".


What you obviously can’t understand though, is that if "~opse proves that it can be translated "after" the end of the Sabbath~", the concept as such of ‘after’, requires that ‘the sabbath’ must be Accusative, but it is not; it is Genitive which as such indicates what ‘opse’ of itself being an Adjective requires, that “Sabbath” must agree and also mean, “late on”— naturally. Therefore, where’s your Accusative for Matthew 28:1 to mean ‘after the Sabbath’? It’s nowhere! Thanks once more!


Again, the same is valid re your alleged ‘after the Sabbath ON the First Day’— you would need “the First Day” to be not the Accusative, “eis Mian sabbatohn” it is, but a Dative, ‘tehi Miai sabbatohn’, or the Genitive, ‘Mias sabbatohn’, PLUS you would have to get clean riddance of the Preposition ‘eis’.


But you can’t do any of these things … he he he he he…

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

One is free under the new coveantant to regard either Sat/Sun as their Sabbath, but cannot claim that only their chosen day is the right one, and really not able to make it a badgehood of salvation as the SDA does!

Off topic sine si-ne qua non.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I am not a Jew/Israelite, and neither are you. If so, tell me which tribe you are from: Gad or Asher?
Or maybe you are from Dan or Manasseh, the two that went into idolatry and are missing in Revelation 7. Which tribe Gerhard? You are not of Israel, and never were!

"God knows who are his."

 

[percho]

Would it be fair and or correct to say that in Matt 28:1 there are a minimum of four Sabbaths spoken of. And for my four, I am going with the end of the 15th of Abib, Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath, ie Sabbaths and the dawning toward the Sabbath to Sabbath of the next week, ie Sabbaths.

 

[DHK]

"God knows who are his."

I know I belong to Him; I am one of His sheep; do you know? Are you one of his sheep?

 

[Yeshua1]

Off topic sine si-ne qua non.

So you would accept that there is now no specific day binding to the church to observe?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

it is Genitive which as such indicates what ‘opse’ of itself being an Adjective requires, that “Sabbath” must agree and also mean, “late on”— naturally.

Erratum
it is Genitive which as such indicates what ‘opse’ of itself being an Adverb requires, that “Sabbath” must agree and also mean, “late on”— naturally.

Apologies!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

So you would accept that there is now no specific day binding to the church to observe?

The day of the week Jesus rose from the dead on, and "God", "according to the Scriptures", "THUS SPAKE about, the day The Seventh Day God all his works finished on"---finished on IN CHRIST, and through Resurrection from the dead unto eternal Life "from all his works RESTED", THAT DAY, ~is now the specific day binding to the Church to observe~. "If JESUS, gave them rest--Himself", that is; otherwise, NO day whatsoever.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Would it be fair and or correct to say that in Matt 28:1 there are a minimum of four Sabbaths spoken of. And for my four, I am going with the end of the 15th of Abib, Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath, ie Sabbaths and the dawning toward the Sabbath to Sabbath of the next week, ie Sabbaths.

No, it would not be fair, because this 'interpretation' disregards certainly the most basic and most essential aspect of Idiom of the Greek language. Your idea(s) do not take account of the metaphoric use in Greek Idiom of the basic word 'shabbath' for the "week" as well as for the determining "Sabbath-day-of-the-week" whether Singular, the "Sabbath-of-the-week" [sabbatou] or Plural, "Sabbaths-of-the-week" [sabbatohn]. And when this “Sabbath was over”, the two Marys “and Salome bought spices so that when they would go they might anoint his body.”


Therefore, ~the 15th of Abib~ was indeed a "great sabbath", "That Day high day of sabbath" of the passover. It was not ~the weekly Sabbath~ though, but when Jesus was our Passover Lamb of God, "That-Day-great-day" of the passover, fell on, and in fact "was, the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath" or Sixth Day of the week ['Friday'].


Therefore there are only two 'sabbaths' spoken of in the four Gospels, 1) the passover's 'sabbath' beginning in Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 John 19:31 Luke 23:50 and ending in John 19:42 Luke 23:54-56a; and

2) "the Sabbath according to the (Fourth) Commandment the women began to rest" on in Luke 23:56b; and on which the Jews "the [Sabbath] morning after The Preparation [after 'Friday']", "came and secured the grave, BUT LATE ON THE SABBATH there was a great earthquake" when Jesus "In the ending of the Sabbath", i.e., "Late on the Sabbath before the First Day of the week", rose from the dead. And when this “Sabbath was over”, the two Marys “and Salome bought spices so that when they would go they might anoint his body.” Mark 16:1.

 

[percho]

No, it would not be fair, because this 'interpretation' disregards certainly the most basic and most essential aspect of Idiom of the Greek language. Your idea(s) do not take account of the metaphoric use in Greek Idiom of the basic word 'shabbath' for the "week" as well as for the determining "Sabbath-day-of-the-week" whether Singular, the "Sabbath-of-the-week" [sabbatou] or Plural, "Sabbaths-of-the-week" [sabbatohn]. And when this “Sabbath was over”, the two Marys “and Salome bought spices so that when they would go they might anoint his body.”


Therefore, ~the 15th of Abib~ was indeed a "great sabbath", "That Day high day of sabbath" of the passover. It was not ~the weekly Sabbath~ though, but when Jesus was our Passover Lamb of God, "That-Day-great-day" of the passover, fell on, and in fact "was, the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath" or Sixth Day of the week ['Friday'].


Therefore there are only two 'sabbaths' spoken of in the four Gospels, 1) the passover's 'sabbath' beginning in Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 John 19:31 Luke 23:50 and ending in John 19:42 Luke 23:54-56a; and

2) "the Sabbath according to the (Fourth) Commandment the women began to rest" on in Luke 23:56b; and on which the Jews "the [Sabbath] morning after The Preparation [after 'Friday']", "came and secured the grave, BUT LATE ON THE SABBATH there was a great earthquake" when Jesus "In the ending of the Sabbath", i.e., "Late on the Sabbath before the First Day of the week", rose from the dead. And when this “Sabbath was over”, the two Marys “and Salome bought spices so that when they would go they might anoint his body.” Mark 16:1.

GE let me say I know, no Greek. Educationally I should not even discuss this, therefore let me ask.

In Matt 28:1 isn't the Greek word σαββάτων used twice and both times it is in the plural? The second time isn't is used in the same manner as say 1 Cor 16:2? Why is it plural? I assumed it would be plural to imply on the first day following the Sabbath unto another Sabbath, ie, the first day of the week or day one between Sabbaths. I may be wrong and you can tell me why it is plural in both places.

Question? Why would it be plural the first time it is used in Matt 28:1? I assumed it was plural for stating, toward the end of a Sabbath preceded by a Sabbath not the weekly Sabbath.

Again correct me if I am wrong for as I said I know, no Greek.

 

[The Biblicist]

One is free under the new coveantant to regard either Sat/Sun as their Sabbath, but cannot claim that only their chosen day is the right one, and really not able to make it a badgehood of salvation as the SDA does!

I dont see the consistent assemblying by Christ with his church beginning on the resurrection first day of the week and repeatedly on the first day of the week to be an accident. Nor that it is repeated as the day of worship in Acts 20:7 and in Paul's epistles to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 16:1-2) or the specific Greek term "kuriakos" used to describe the "Lord's" Supper (1 Cor. 11:20) also used to describe the "Lord's" day in Revelation 1:20 as mere accidents or conincedential. But I see it as a result of a prophetic command in Psalm 118:24 and express teaching in Mark 16:9 and Heb. 4:9-10.

Furthermore, the consistent practice from the first to the fourth century is no mere accident. Just as the Old Covenant had a "sign" of the covenant which was the "seventh" day so the sign of the new covenant is the "first" day of the wee and this is made clear in Leviticus where new covenant types are consistently characterized by the first day sabbaths instead of 7th day sabbaths.

Your welcome to your opinion but you have little to support it. Romans 14-15 deal with things neither right nor wrong in themselves rather than Biblical precepts or practices. Colosians 2;16 deals with the Old Testament Sabbaths. The first day of the week is not part of the Old Covenant legalism that surrounds the seventh day Sabbath. It celebrates the resurrection of Christ and points forward to a new creation which is an eternal eighth day wherein there is no sin.

 

[The Biblicist]

What I cannot understand though, is how ‘opse’ proves that ‘opse’ can be translated "after".

You are doing precisely what all whose error has been exposed. They respond by attempting to muddy the water hoping to escape or turn it around on their opponent. You charge me with things I never said and here is another example of a thing I never said or tried to prove. Opse does not prove opse can be translated "after" and I never said it did. That is your escape muddy the water tactic.

I said, opse is used by Christ for the time period that occurs AFTER the end of the preceding day which was the first watch of the night that occurred between 6-9 p.m. That application of opse to 6-9 pm proves it can be used to mean a period of time "AFTER" the ending of the previous day. If it could not, then Jesus could not have used it to describe 6-9 pm. That simple and that clear.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE let me say I know, no Greek. Educationally I should not even discuss this, therefore let me ask.


In Matt 28:1 isn't the Greek word σαββάτων used twice and both times it is in the plural? The second time isn't is used in the same manner as say 1 Cor 16:2? Why is it plural? I assumed it would be plural to imply on the first day following the Sabbath unto another Sabbath, ie, the first day of the week or day one between Sabbaths. I may be wrong and you can tell me why it is plural in both places.


Question? Why would it be plural the first time it is used in Matt 28:1? I assumed it was plural for stating, toward the end of a Sabbath preceded by a Sabbath not the weekly Sabbath.


Again correct me if I am wrong for as I said I know, no Greek.

Dear Percho, without knowing you know more Greek than you knew. All languages not realising use Greek. And certainly one of the most universally adopted usages of the Greek language is that of the concept of the 'week', the seven days cycles NAMED AFTER ITS MAIN DAY, the Seventh Day of the week the "Sabbath". The Christian era since its start has known the ‘week’ as the result NOT of the Hebrew religion or Scriptures, but as the result of the CHRISTIAN, New Testament religion and Scriptures.


The Sabbath Day is the last day of the seven days designating "the week". The "week" in Greek consists of "on Day 1 of the Sabbath(-week)", [‘tehi Miai sabbatohn’ Plural, or ‘tehs Mias Sabbatou’ Singular] until "on the Sabbath(-of-the-week)" [Sabbatohn].


Before the Christian era the word 'seven' [hebdomos] was used for 'the week', but the word 'Sabbath' began to be used in the first century era of New Testament Vernacular (Koineh) Greek for the "sabbath-week". Due to Christian usage of Greek rather than the influence of Hebrew, the word 'sabbatohn' / 'sabbatou', became the Greek Idiom for the seven-days-cycle with “the day of the Sabbath” or “the Seventh Day of the Sabbath" its main day, adopted and applied in every day life universally.

Refer A.T. Robertson, “Semitic colouring”, “Hebrew influence”, “Numbers”. See also previous posts of mine on BB.


So, <<Why is it plural? I assumed it would be plural to imply on the first day following the Sabbath unto another Sabbath, ie, the first day of the week or day one between Sabbaths. I may be wrong and you can tell me why it is plural in both places.>> I think that you are 100% correct, dear Percho!