In the context if the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'?

[Dave...]

You're not 'alive' and so you have 'faith' which gives you 'the indwelling of the Holy Spirit' and that then makes you 'alive'?

Hi Alan

The life is the result of the Holy Spirit indwelling because it is Christ who lives in us. The ongoing faith is the gift from God. Nothing has been proven to extend that gift of grace/life to the initial belief/trust/faith before that indwelling. Read carefully...until proven other wise, dead people can believe.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Have Spirit, have life. It's simple right? So simple it's scary, right? But wait, faith also gives us the Spirit, thus that faith gives us the life.

Gal. 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

What's the solution? When we receive the Holy Spirit indwelling as a result of (initial) faith, it is at this point that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of that life, that faith. The same word for "Author" in here is used in Acts 3:15 as "Prince". Prince/Author of what? Life.

Acts 3:15 and killed the Prince (Author) of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

Explained perfectly by Paul. Notice the life begins when Jesus lives in us, which is the Spirit of Christ, or the Holy Spirit living in us. Which is the result of (initial) faith. Paul here is speaking of the "the life which I now live". The ongoing "life", or faith that is a gift from God, by grace.

Gal. 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

But wait, back again to the initial faith, "by faith we enter into that grace".

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

The solution? Again, there is a distinction between the initial faith and the ongoing faith, called the life, the gift of grace, the gift of God. The initial faith is not of that life. The burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. Alan, you're approaching with a philosophy that is not taught in Scripture. Every grain of your thinking is programed to interpret Scripture with that philosophy as evidenced in your quote above. First, lay down the philosophy and prove from Scripture that the life begins before we receive the Holy Spirit. I've been trying, but have been unable to. One thing for sure, though, it's not from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Could it be the Word? Is it the Spirit being upon someone? Is it God in presence? Is it God in presence through His Word, through the believer indwelt? Is it the flesh? Show me in Scripture. Many have tried, but in my opinion have failed. One assumption built upon another.

And it is at this point that the Calvinist goes back to total depravity, which the Bible doesn't teach, and also John 3:3, John 1:12-13, 1 John 5:1, yada, yada, yada. Why are dead people hardened, resulting in blindness and an lack of inability to hear? People were hardened, judicially, to blind them, to take away their ability to hear, because they were not spiritually deaf and blind. And even those whom were judicially hardened could repent and believe and be grafted back in. Jesus spoke in parables because they could hear and He didn't want them to hear, lest they believe (judicial). And round and round the Calvinist assumption tree we go. Where is the starting point? You know, the clear and factual Scripture that all these assumption are built on that doesn't contradict clear Scripture? We look, but never find it.


Dave

 

[Dave...]

Ephesians 2:8;
"For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

So, you panic and fall back on your training, to always go with illiteracy anytime you're pressed to believe the most apparent contextual harmony between grace and faith, as there is between any other two words in the Bible.

You really want to try and utterly divorce the word 'grace' from the word 'faith', so that we can say 'grace' is the gift of God, but the means and methodology by which we obtain grace that is in the same phase, when God grants 'faith' to the unbeliever as His mechanism He Provides to give us a Spiritual Way to gain Spiritual Access to His grace, is not a gift, but is left up to the fickleness of man, who may decide to have 'faith' to acquire God's 'grace', or he may not?

'Grace' is the gift of God and when God gives that gift of 'grace', the 'faith' that is mentioned there in that same phase is not also a gift, at the same moment God would be using 'faith' to obtain access to that 'grace'", so 'grace' is not of ourselves, but 'faith' is, since those two words have to be entirely separated from any association between both of them being granted by God as His gift?, i.e., "For by grace are you saved through faith."

That's a stretch.
One more twisted stretch to a fake moon and back.

You're still setting aside the Sovereignty of God, the Word of God, the Law, the Gospel, sin, repentance, and God's Quickening Power which grants Eternal Life over Eternal death, when He gives Spiritual faith, to the Spiritually dead soul.

"You must be born again", doesn't say for a lost soul to "have faith to give birth to your own Born Again experience of salvation and begin your life of being a Partaker of the Divine Nature."

A wicked purifying wretched worm who's blind and can not even discern the things of the Spirit and who hates God can't change to color their skin or raise themselves out of the grave when dead.

You don't have that kind of All Mighty Power.


All this talk exalts man, as being their own mother of their New Birth from Above, which doesn't ever happen in any other application on earth, but God and the New Testament writers exalt God as being the One Who Quickens the dead.

Read post #81 it applies here also. Context matters.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

@Dave...

This means the believers Faith is born of God

The ongoing faith, the life. Not the initial faith.

 

[Dave...]

Let's look at it again, Dave, with more of the passage listed in order to see the context:

" There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ( and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, ) full of grace and truth." ( John 1:6-14 )

Hi Dave.

Yes, I see the context. The problem is not in the context. You're clinging to a translation that used old English, which always plays with the order. The word "even" was added by the translators to clarify, only it clarified THEIR meaning, meaning THEIR tradition, not the meaning of the text. The proper order of reading is in the ESV.

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

Born of God is the result of the right to become children of God, which is the result of those who did receive Him, who believed in His name.

Dave, I'm saying this with the utmost respect, but I think you, like many others, have idolized the KJV and use it to protect error, all the while convincing yourself that your defending truth. I pray that one day you'll see that.

Dave

 

[Brightfame52]

The ongoing faith, the life. Not the initial faith.

Yes the initial faith is born of God

 

[Dave...]

1) No, once again, Dave, you seem unwilling to present what Romans 4 says. Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness, but Abraham's was not credited with righteousness.

2) The premise of our faith or belief depends on God considering our faith as valid for His purpose. Demons believe but God does not credit their faith as righteousness. The folks in Matthew 7 believed to a degree, they said "Lord, Lord" but their faith or belief did not result in obtaining the promise to those who "believe."

3) Yes God is the justifier of those whose faith He alone credits as righteousness.

4) Yes, the OT Saints were not made perfect until they underwent the washing of regeneration. No, what was credited to Abraham's faith was righteousness. You continue to confuse His faith being credited as righteousness, which is true, to Abraham being credited as righteousness which is false doctrine.

5) Yes when God credits a lost individuals faith as righteousness, He transfers the person into Christ where they undergo the washing of regeneration, making them alive together with Christ, fully justified, holy and blameless. Having been made perfect, having the righteousness of Christ as a spiritual child and sibling of Christ, they are a new creation, created for good works.

But none of the above addresses the actual issue, which is our faith does not save us, bu when God credits our faith as righteousness, God therefore monergistically saves us. . This is the simple truth, faith when credited as righteousness by God is according to grace not works, and therefore we are saved by grace through faith, not saved by grace then given faith.

Van

I don't know how to explain it any better than the post that you're replying to. # 71 I believe. Sorry.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Yes the initial faith is born of God

Bright, you'd need to prove it with Scripture.

 

[Brightfame52]

Bright, you'd need to prove it with Scripture.

lol you just rejected the scripture. 1 Jn 5:4

 

[Dave...]

lol you just rejected the scripture. 1 Jn 5:4

I rejected your interstation of it. Nice try though.

"For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith."

1 John 5:4 Is an evidence statement. you're making a cause claim.

Dave

 

[Dave G]

You're clinging to a translation that used old English, which always plays with the order.

Respectfully, I disagree.

In my case, I'm clinging to a translation that I'm able to read very well, despite its use of Late Middle English.
I don't see where it plays with word order.

I believe it to be accurate to the English of its day, as well as properly translated from what I hold to be the divinely inspired and preserved Greek and Hebrew texts.
Because of my studies in this precious book, I have come to understand it very well over the past 23 years since I began to avail myself of God's commands to study it.

The word "even" was added by the translators to clarify, only it clarified THEIR meaning, meaning THEIR tradition, not the meaning of the text.

I agree in that it was added by them to clarify what they thought needed to be clarified;
That's why it is in italics, so that the reader would know that it was not part of the text but was added for clarity.

 

[Dave G]

The proper order of reading is in the ESV.

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

One reason I don't recommend the ESV ( or any translation of the Bible that makes use of the "Critical Text" in the Greek ) is because of what I see as the translators taking liberty with the inherent strictness of the translation process.
Another reason is that it uses the so-called "Critical Text", and not the "Textus Receptus" as its Greek foundation.

So, when I read the Bible that my forefathers had 100, 200, 300 and even 400 years ago in English, I'm using the word of God that was and is properly translated from God's divinely preserved texts;
But, this subject is for another thread, so I won't take up any space by elaborating more fully about it in this one.

From my vantage point, what I posted is the word of God and has been, for far longer than you or I have been on this earth.

Born of God is the result of the right to become children of God, which is the result of those who did receive Him, who believed in His name.

While I recognize your right to understand it the way that you do, I don't see it saying that.
Rather, I read it the other way around, especially given what the Lord has said about His people being chosen in Christ before the world began ( Ephesians 1 ) and them believing because they were ordained to eternal life ( Acts 13:48 ) and it was given to them to do so ( Philippians 1:29 ).

In other words, I see Paul telling the churches that they believe because they are saved...
They are not saved because they believe..

That is why we disagree.

 

[Dave G]

Dave, I'm saying this with the utmost respect, but I think you, like many others, have idolized the KJV and use it to protect error, all the while convincing yourself that your defending truth. I pray that one day you'll see that.

I don't idolize a particular translation of the Bible, Dave.
I believe the AV and what it says because I know that it is God who is telling me, as one of His elect, things that He wants me to know.

I pray that one day you understand that not all translations of the Bible are equal;
Nor are the motivations behind them all about making a better translation.
If they were, all one would have had to do was to update the AV using more modern English words and phrases, and leave the rest of the text alone.
Such a process would be straight, simple and would probably take only a few years ( if that long ) to do properly and faithfully.

But many of today's Bible publishing houses and their translators would have you and me believe that we don't have all of God's inspired and preserved words...
That we're on a never-ending treadmill of discovery and that the Lord, in His wisdom and power, did not carefully and wisely step in and preserve His words for successive generations of His people;

When I believe, by faith, that we do have them and have had them since the Lord spoke the words through His apostles and prophets.

 

[Brightfame52]

I rejected your interstation of it. Nice try though.

"For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith."

1 John 5:4 Is an evidence statement. you're making a cause claim.

Dave

You rejected the scripture that plainly says, faith is born of God. Born in the verse is perfect passive, so the birth occurred in the past once and for all, with results into the present

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

ὅτι πᾶν τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ νικᾷ τὸν κόσμον· καὶ αὕτη ἐστὶν ἡ νίκη ἡ νικήσασα τὸν κόσμον ἡ πίστις ἡμῶ

Definition of "Perfect"
In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated

We know he is talking about faith, being born of God since whatsover is neuter, when he is speaking about the person specifically being born of God in Vs 1

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

whosoever is masculine, and even then born of God is perfect tense again. The ongoing believing in the present is the result of having been born of God in the past.

This really shuts you down completely, but you wont believe it because you cant.

 

[Brightfame52]

I don't idolize a particular translation of the Bible, Dave.
I believe the AV and what it says because I know that it is God who is telling me, as one of His elect, things that He wants me to know.

I pray that one day you understand that not all translations of the Bible are equal;
Nor are the motivations behind them all about making a better translation.
If they were, all one would have had to do was to update the AV using more modern English words and phrases, and leave the rest of the text alone.
Such a process would be straight, simple and would probably take only a few years ( if that long ) to do properly and faithfully.

But many of today's Bible publishing houses and their translators would have you and me believe that we don't have all of God's inspired and preserved words...
That we're on a never-ending treadmill of discovery and that the Lord, in His wisdom and power, did not carefully and wisely step in and preserve His words for successive generations of His people;

When I believe, by faith, that we do have them and have had them since the Lord spoke the words through His apostles and prophets.

One needs be established in the truth/faith when dealing with these different translations or they can easily mislead you. I believe the KJV version is the most reliable, but i may still look at other translations, at times they are helpful.

 

[Van]

Van

I don't know how to explain it any better than the post that you're replying to. # 71 I believe. Sorry.

Dave

Still refusing to acknowledge God credits the faith of some believers as righteousness, rather than credits the believer with righteousness. Sorry