Independent baptists and the doctrine of a universal body of Christ

[Darrell C]

After raising 11 children that's the quality I looked for in my kids.

Wow, that is amazing. "You must have had your hands full" just doesn't seem to cover it, lol.


God bless.

 

[HankD]

Wow, that is amazing. "You must have had your hands full" just doesn't seem to cover it, lol.


God bless.

Yes, we had a farm in Maine - 88 acres. Farm animals, milk cow, ducks, chickens, hogs, etc...
Two gardens.

We delegated all the work to the kids. They complained about all the work they had to do.

But when they get together now - you guessed it - they LOVE to reminisce - for hours!


HankD

 

[Darrell C]

Yes, we had a farm in Maine - 88 acres. Farm animals, milk cow, ducks, chickens, hogs, etc...
Two gardens.

We delegated all the work to the kids. They complained about all the work they had to do.

But when they get together now - you guessed it - they LOVE to reminisce - for hours!


HankD

Sounds as though you have been greatly blessed, my friend.


Psalm 127:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.

5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.


God bless.

 

[HankD]

Sounds as though you have been greatly blessed, my friend.


Psalm 127:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.

5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.


God bless.

Indeed.

HankD

 

[Martin Marprelate]

When Martin Luther came out of Roman Catholicism and started his new denomination he found himself in a dilemma. He had taught that there was only one church, but he had started another. So he invented the idea of a universal invisible church.

This just isn't so. John Wyclif certainly taught it 150 years before Luther (quotations available on request), and I think you'll find that he wasn't the first.
The teaching of a Universal church composed of the elect of all ages (I am always a bit unhappy with the term 'invisible') counters the Church of Rome's idea that it is the only Church.

 

[Yeshua1]

If what? If they didn't acknowledge it to God with some expectation of victory?

This has been the manner of victory over certain stubborn sins in my own life, when I quit trying to conquer it on my own, confess it, and then let Jesus take care of it.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


HankD

I am speaking to the Christians who have a known sin problem in some area, and refuse to even admit they have one, nor seeking to get victory over it!

 

[HankD]

I am speaking to the Christians who have a known sin problem in some area, and refuse to even admit they have one, nor seeking to get victory over it!

I knew that Yeshua, It was a little fuzzy though

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

I knew that Yeshua, It was a little fuzzy though

HankD

Some say that most of my theology is a bit fuzzy!

 

[HankD]

Some say that most of my theology is a bit fuzzy!

Its not so much your theology Y but the vocabulary, grammar and syntax you use by which to express it that turns out to be a little fuzzy

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

Its not so much your theology Y but the vocabulary, grammar and syntax you use by which to express it that turns out to be a little fuzzy

HankD

Must be a hangover from ny AOG days, expected others here to have gift to interpret my writing tongue!

 

[360watt]

So which 'local church' was Jesus referring to in Matt 16:18?

As for these things 'infiltrating' formally(? - I guessing your mean formerly?) sound baptist's church - I'm sorry but that isn't following the evidence or being honest, just take for example an early baptist confession of faith like the 1689 London Confession which states:

26:1 "The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

The baptists that wrote these types of confessions of faith are the spiritual forefathers of the modern 'baptist' movements of today!

Matthew 16:18-- church in the generic sense.. but still local.

Eg.. the horse.. the cat.. the dog..

That's one representing all.

The horse is a handsome animal... that is not one universal horse! That is representing all.. but of the visible single horse.

The cat-- same... the dog.. the same.

So with 'the church'.. Jesus is talking about the local church.. but not one in particular. It's the institution of the church.

You would also be faced with the fact.. that if 'the church' started in the New Testament.. then it would not include the saved of the Old Testament!

Hence why the church DID start with the NT as it was not 'all saved'

 

[Ben Labelle]

The bible says we are all members of one body. So how is there any way to dispute that? ((1 Corinthians 12:12-27-
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.))

Paul does not here say that we are all members of Christ’s body. He’s speaking of the Corinthian church. He’s giving an analogy of them as a body to illustrate how different members have different roles. Notice he says “ye are the body of Christ,” I.e. he excludes himself. Also note that a body is a local thing.

 

[Ben Labelle]

The position stated
There seems to be some confusion about what exactly the local-only position is. It is not that there is no invisible group to which all Christians belong (the Family or Kingdom of God). It is this: that when the Bible uses the term “church,” it is only ever referring to the local assembly. It is also probable, based on this, that the terms “body of Christ,” “temple of God,” “flock,” etc., also only ever refer to the local assembly.

The position defended
The Greek word ekklesia, translated “church,” only means “assembly.” Something is not an assembly if it doesn’t assemble. A universal group does not assemble, and thus cannot be referenced by the word “ekklesia.”

We are to interpret the Bible by the meaning of the words found within. I found not, trying to interpret the Bible is pointless. A word cannot be taken to have a meaning completely contrary to its actual meaning unless it is shown to have been clearly redefined (e.g. “my kingdom is not of this world,”).

See:
The Reformed Reader - Ecclesia, The Church - B. H. Carroll
WHAT IS TRUTH: Ekklesia
WHAT IS TRUTH: "Body of Christ" Defined

 

[Salty]

.

The position defended
...The Greek word ekklesia, translated “church,” only means “assembly.” Something is not an assembly if it doesn’t assemble. A universal group does not assemble, and thus cannot be referenced by the word “ekklesia.” ...

So when thousands would show up at a Billy Graham crusade, - would that be considered an assembly of Christians?

 

[Ben Labelle]

So when thousands would show up at a Billy Graham crusade, - would that be considered an assembly of Christians?

It would be an assembly, an ekklesia.

But it would not be a church of Christ. The NT thrice uses the word ekklesia to signify an assembled group that isn’t a church (in these cases, it is translated “assembly”). The word is translated church when the context indicates that a church of Christ (a gospel church, church of God, “My church,”) is being spoken of.

 

[TCassidy]

Another year old zombie thread closed.