Yep. At that time there was only one church, the one at Jerusalem.And at that time there were many churches.
Pretty telling.
To which Jerusalem was He referring - old or new?
Biggrin
HankD
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Independent baptists and the doctrine of a universal body of Christ
- Thread starter 360watt
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To which Jerusalem was He referring - old or new?
Biggrin
HankD
Singular 'church' like I typed before-- is like saying 'the horse' or 'the dog'.. its the institution of the church. The local unit in a general sense.. like when someone says 'the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth'.. it's not one in particular.. but still is about local churches.
Oh yeah.. Moody pointed out in his book 'My church' that saying a 'local' church is also nonsensical.. because we don't say 'here is my local wife' or 'here is a local dog'. They are local and visible without being called 'local'
Oh yeah.. Moody pointed out in his book 'My church' that saying a 'local' church is also nonsensical.. because we don't say 'here is my local wife' or 'here is a local dog'. They are local and visible without being called 'local'
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I am on the other side of the semantic viewpoint, but I agree this is not a fighting issue.I believe the church is local and visible. And I believe all the redeemed are "in Christ" "one with Christ" and "seated with Him in the heavenlies." In my understanding that is the "universal body of Christ" we are all united with.
I believe each local congregation is a local body of believers belonging to Christ and thus a "body of Christ." Just like there is more than one student body and more than one body politic.
However, I also believe the issue is mostly semantics. When somebody talks about "The Church" meaning "all the redeemed" My mind translates that into "The Family of God." Or if it is referring to the departed souls in heaven the "The Kingdom of God."
I don't think the issue, being mere semantics, is worth fighting over or separating over. "Let each man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
Singular 'church' like I typed before-- is like saying 'the horse' or 'the dog'.. its the institution of the church. The local unit in a general sense.. like when someone says 'the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth'.. it's not one in particular.. but still is about local churches.
Oh yeah.. Moody pointed out in his book 'My church' that saying a 'local' church is also nonsensical.. because we don't say 'here is my local wife' or 'here is a local dog'. They are local and visible without being called 'local'
Wives, dogs - wrong sense IMO (BTW, I didn't choose to put those the 2 nouns together).
The weather report talks about the local weather (Washington, Oregon, etc...) and then the weather for the entire region of the Americas.
When I hear of the The "universal" church I think of the collective spirits of born-agains from Pentecost till today assembled on earth and in heaven.
Hebrews 12:23 ... the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect
The local church are those born-agains assembled in the church extension at my geographic location where I am a member.
In either case I understand each side of the coin and pragmatically adapt to the proper sense.
Now we can further strain away at the gnat and talk about - when did the church begin? The Day of Pentecost or some other time like at the foundation of the world or perhaps in eternity past?
Tongue in cheek of course (although we have had such discussions).
HankD
John Public
Evangelist, author, muscian. Meek servant.
Permit an ex-fundie to provide some thoughts for a moment.
I have read most of the works Jack Hyles, and listened to thousands of hours combined of Ruckman, Hyles, Lacey, Steve Anderson. I also hold the English Bible is the Authorized Version, even before my IFB days. If you do not, that's your descion.
You point out local churches. Please explain where Pensacola Baptist Institute, Faithful Word, and First Baptist Hammond are found in the Bible. They are not. The churches were known by the names of the nearest city or region; Smyrna, Thessilonia, Ephesus, Rome, Galatia, Macedinoa, Thyartia…
However, here is the problem: Baptists held this until the New School vs. Old School (primitive, denoting original) split, with certian exceptions. While a reformed confession, the 1689 has a good bit about the fact God chose his elect, http://www.1689.com/confession.html#Ch. 26
That ought to give a large amount of scripture to study.
Old School dates itself to AD 60. Perhaps the earliest the free will type can date is about 1605-08.
The main issue here is that God is not resticted to a local body.
Ta ta for now.
Well, yes God has the wider organism of the Family of God and also the Kingdom of God. So yes He isn't restricted to local bodies of believers..
But I believe the bible teaches -- God's local bodies-- His churches are the primary source for all teaching and fellowship in christianity. The Holy Spirit dwells 'in the midst' of each of His churches.
He doesn't do this with with any other thing. He does indwell believers individually at them receiving salvation, but the that is not being 'in the midst' of a local church. (I use local.. but shouldn't.. it's just for the benefit of people who believe in a now existing universal church)
What does it matter? If your focus is on local churches anyway then maybe not.. but consider the verse speaking of being 'baptised into the body of Christ' ..
Is then baptism a requirement for receiving eternal salvation? If as you believe-- the 'body' is universal?
But then maybe you say.. no.. this verse isn't about the wider body of every believer.. but is the local body..
Well then you can't really believe in wider body of every believer.. because there are few verses that speak of the body singular-- and this is one of the key ones.
Or maybe you say.. it is figurative baptism.. 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'... which is the same as receiving eternal but put in terms reflecting the dieing and raising up..
Well.. baptism of the Holy Spirit is a teaching foreign to the bible in the sense of it being about an individual receiving salvation..
Groups got empowered by the Holy Spirit as new churches in the NT..seen all thru Acts. None of these cases were about receiving eternal life.
So, maybe it means little.. but that would only be if becoming part of being every believer.. was purely by grace through faith in Christ.. and had nothing to do with baptism-- either water or the figurative 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'
*last post*
John Public
Evangelist, author, muscian. Meek servant.
Well, yes God has the wider organism of the Family of God and also the Kingdom of God. So yes He isn't restricted to local bodies of believers..
But I believe the bible teaches -- God's local bodies-- His churches are the primary source for all teaching and fellowship in christianity. The Holy Spirit dwells 'in the midst' of each of His churches.
He doesn't do this with with any other thing. He does indwell believers individually at them receiving salvation, but the that is not being 'in the midst' of a local church. (I use local.. but shouldn't.. it's just for the benefit of people who believe in a now existing universal church)
What does it matter? If your focus is on local churches anyway then maybe not.. but consider the verse speaking of being 'baptised into the body of Christ' ..
Is then baptism a requirement for receiving eternal salvation? If as you believe-- the 'body' is universal?
But then maybe you say.. no.. this verse isn't about the wider body of every believer.. but is the local body..
Well then you can't really believe in wider body of every believer.. because there are few verses that speak of the body singular-- and this is one of the key ones.
Or maybe you say.. it is figurative baptism.. 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'... which is the same as receiving eternal but put in terms reflecting the dieing and raising up..
Well.. baptism of the Holy Spirit is a teaching foreign to the bible in the sense of it being about an individual receiving salvation..
Groups got empowered by the Holy Spirit as new churches in the NT..seen all thru Acts. None of these cases were about receiving eternal life.
So, maybe it means little.. but that would only be if becoming part of being every believer.. was purely by grace through faith in Christ.. and had nothing to do with baptism-- either water or the figurative 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'
*last post*
Watt, it is flat you are not entirely sure on this matter; your surmisings here make it practically impossible to understand or respond. It is also flat you have an agenda. Ranting about baptism being required (I do need to get my book on that published) is a foolish statement.
I also note you totally dodged the main point of my post with the fact any church calling itself beyond its city or region is defying the scriptures.
Perhaps your folly may be remedied by some basic gospel doctrine. Saint Mark's gospel 16.16 states, He that believeth & is baptized shall be saved; and he that believeth not shall be damned.
Romans 6.3, 4
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I Cor. 1.13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 12.13
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3.27
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Colossians 2.12
God does not in any manner dwell in anything but his temple, the human body. It seems much learning hath made thee mad. How can God dwell in a building where a preacher is glorified more than he, being raise up in a pulpit? He no longer has an house of hands, but a kingdom without hands.
Foolish Galatian, who hath bewitched you; have you not read, And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people?
A man cried to Jesus being ignorant of the Bible, never having been baptized, but asks mercy on a sinner. He lived a gargantuanly sinful life. He dies.
An Baptist prays a quick sinner's prayer, joins the church, lives religiously. He is baptized instantly upon profession.
However, his heart never trusted in the silly words of a silly gospel preacher. Declare the just one.
Joining a local church is not by baptism, for joining the body of Christ is. There is no Scripture supporting such an anathema. Why not be honorable? Study those verses in the 1689 so you can actually know what the universal church doctrine is.
Is the earthly house of tabernacle of the soul, the human body, baptized into the body of Christ, the church, Jerusalem above the mother of us all, for the purpose of the body, having been redeemed from death and corruption, to be born into the kingdom of God, spiritual, immortal and incorruptible, at the coming again of Christ?
Rom 8:11, 1 Cor 15:35-53, 2 Cor 5:1-8, Eph 1:13,14
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. Matt 20:23
The church?
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John Public
Evangelist, author, muscian. Meek servant.
It will take me a moment to reference all those verses. If you think God dwells in as he did building alone in Solomon's day, you've missed a boat by approximately three thousand years, and it's soon to sail away. Good news is that this gospel ship has not left— yet.
How ironic you quote from Ephesians 1, yet you disregard predestination by God's choice through Jesus' blood!
Holy Ghost regeneration is the means of salvation, 2 Corinthians 5.17. That's got nothing to do with the fundamentalist fundamental lack of understanding of what is defined by the universal church. You did not choose Christ because he chooses according to that predestinate elect, Romans 8.28-30, John 6.44-70, 15, fundies seemingly have no answer regarding, save to ignorantly yell ISRAEL then call someone who tries to correct that floppy theology antisemetic by going to John ten.
We are not suggesting the invisible church is replacing the local body. If you did not try to take verses or concepts out of conception, you might, percho, understand the other Paragraphs in Of the Church affirm mandatory joining of some sound local church. Need they be quoted?
As to you reference of 2 Corinthians 5.1-8, it affirms what we are discussing; the regenerate human body is our temporal home. I will refrain from amillenialism as this is beyond the post.
I sure do long that after the tribulation we immidiately will be with
the Lord, to be rid of this infirmed body. However, this house shall pass away. Then are we in an altogether different tabernacle called heaven. Oh, let the LORD be not displeased, and catch me up there!
Clearly, you have not read I John 5.1 as you would understand whatvin John three Jesus was talking about; you ARE born of God, not to be born, if you have believed. How can you be born again if your birth is pending?
As to the eighteen verses in 1 Corinthians 15, that is reallyba redirection. I'll again point out you do not understand the idea here. You're talking about two things not correlated and should read the passage cautiously to see what it means. Non-sequiter.
Romans 8.11 is a wonderful proof text of monergism; how else can dead men get to heaven, much less if there is nobody to preach to that person? You'd think a bum like Lazurus would get a shout of Godly joy if he were in heaven as much as one hearing the gospel and believing thereon, not by some fellow telling him to turn from his sins and join a church.
It sure must have been 2015 years ago quite the thing doe the Messias himself to witness to you; yet even the woman among the throng had her issue healed.
You, percho, did raise some good points; I always love a good study to be washed in the waters of the word. However,
your nitpicking is very much a double standard as you did not deal with the Scriptures in the Confession, and you did not address the at-hand issue with those verses 28.
Will you admit you are simply dodging the fact you do not understand what the invisible or universal church would be?
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Let's look at a couple of verses that may throw some light on the subject.
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Now let's break that down. "What? know ye (plural) not that your (plural) body (singular) is the temple (singular) of the Holy Ghost which is in you (plural), which ye (plural) have of God, and ye (plural) are not your own?
20 For ye (plural) are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your (plural) body (singular), and in your (plural) spirit (singular), which are God's."
I have no doubt that every truly regenerate person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, is in Christ, and Christ is in him.
However, I don't think that is what Paul is talking about in the above verses. Paul is addressing the church at Corinth. And he says that all of them collectively (plural) are part of the local church body (singular) which is the New Testament analog to the Old Testament Temple (singular).
In the Old Testament God had one Temple for His people.
In the New Testament God has one people for His Temple.
The local, New Testament, church is the center of our religious life here on earth just as Christ is the Center of our Eternal, Heavenly Life, seated at the Right Hand of the Almighty in Heaven.
The whole point of Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church was to tell them they were carnal, and were involved in serious sin. He is saying that their conduct has defiled the Temple of God, the local New Testament Church, and that has to be addressed and corrected before he could consider them "spiritual" rather than "carnal."
And sin in the body has to be addressed both individually (the person) and collectively (the church body).
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Now let's break that down. "What? know ye (plural) not that your (plural) body (singular) is the temple (singular) of the Holy Ghost which is in you (plural), which ye (plural) have of God, and ye (plural) are not your own?
20 For ye (plural) are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your (plural) body (singular), and in your (plural) spirit (singular), which are God's."
I have no doubt that every truly regenerate person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, is in Christ, and Christ is in him.
However, I don't think that is what Paul is talking about in the above verses. Paul is addressing the church at Corinth. And he says that all of them collectively (plural) are part of the local church body (singular) which is the New Testament analog to the Old Testament Temple (singular).
In the Old Testament God had one Temple for His people.
In the New Testament God has one people for His Temple.
The local, New Testament, church is the center of our religious life here on earth just as Christ is the Center of our Eternal, Heavenly Life, seated at the Right Hand of the Almighty in Heaven.
The whole point of Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church was to tell them they were carnal, and were involved in serious sin. He is saying that their conduct has defiled the Temple of God, the local New Testament Church, and that has to be addressed and corrected before he could consider them "spiritual" rather than "carnal."
And sin in the body has to be addressed both individually (the person) and collectively (the church body).
John Public
Evangelist, author, muscian. Meek servant.
We could close the thread at that!
Let's look at a couple of verses that may throw some light on the subject.
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Now let's break that down. "What? know ye (plural) not that your (plural) body (singular) is the temple (singular) of the Holy Ghost which is in you (plural), which ye (plural) have of God, and ye (plural) are not your own?
20 For ye (plural) are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your (plural) body (singular), and in your (plural) spirit (singular), which are God's."
I have no doubt that every truly regenerate person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, is in Christ, and Christ is in him.
However, I don't think that is what Paul is talking about in the above verses. Paul is addressing the church at Corinth. And he says that all of them collectively (plural) are part of the local church body (singular) which is the New Testament analog to the Old Testament Temple (singular).
In the Old Testament God had one Temple for His people.
In the New Testament God has one people for His Temple.
The local, New Testament, church is the center of our religious life here on earth just as Christ is the Center of our Eternal, Heavenly Life, seated at the Right Hand of the Almighty in Heaven.
The whole point of Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church was to tell them they were carnal, and were involved in serious sin. He is saying that their conduct has defiled the Temple of God, the local New Testament Church, and that has to be addressed and corrected before he could consider them "spiritual" rather than "carnal."
And sin in the body has to be addressed both individually (the person) and collectively (the church body).
Yeah.. looking back on my post above.. it does look a bit convoluted now.. but what you have here is mostly what I was on about.
My key points are: If you believe the body of Christ is every believer.. well.. the bible speaks of being 'baptised' into it.
This may not be a problem if baptism in this case was just figurative language for being saved by grace thru faith in Christ..
but the baptism being talked about for the church of Corinth is full immersion water baptism.
Anyhoo..
As for Christ dwelling 'in the midst'..
Matthew chapter 18 is about this.. it is the process for resolving sin issues within a church family.. and has the Holy Spirit being 'in the midst' of church members getting together in 2 or 3 to resolve a dispute.
Also in Revelation you have 'lampstands'.. these are the places of the Holy Spirit for each of God's churches.. where the Holy Spirit would be dwelling in the midst of each assembly.
Anyway.. I stop now
There is much to agree with how you rendered this passage.Let's look at a couple of verses that may throw some light on the subject.
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Now let's break that down. "What? know ye (plural) not that your (plural) body (singular) is the temple (singular) of the Holy Ghost which is in you (plural), which ye (plural) have of God, and ye (plural) are not your own?
20 For ye (plural) are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your (plural) body (singular), and in your (plural) spirit (singular), which are God's."
I have no doubt that every truly regenerate person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, is in Christ, and Christ is in him.
However, I don't think that is what Paul is talking about in the above verses. Paul is addressing the church at Corinth. And he says that all of them collectively (plural) are part of the local church body (singular) which is the New Testament analog to the Old Testament Temple (singular).
In the Old Testament God had one Temple for His people.
In the New Testament God has one people for His Temple.
The local, New Testament, church is the center of our religious life here on earth just as Christ is the Center of our Eternal, Heavenly Life, seated at the Right Hand of the Almighty in Heaven.
The whole point of Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church was to tell them they were carnal, and were involved in serious sin. He is saying that their conduct has defiled the Temple of God, the local New Testament Church, and that has to be addressed and corrected before he could consider them "spiritual" rather than "carnal."
And sin in the body has to be addressed both individually (the person) and collectively (the church body).
However, the church is the collective of individuals. The plurals are directed to the collective of individual believer responsibility.
When a teacher tells children to clean up the room, each individual is being addressed, that the address is to the collective would not diminish the addressing to the individual. Each being responsible for their own contribution not only to the mess but cleaning up that mess.
Paul was telling individuals that they are responsible for the collective mess, and that as a collective of individuals they are held responsible (the individuals) to clean up. I like the NASB of the passage that shows that individuals are the emphasis.
"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?"
So, in a way, I think you are very correct as well as those who look upon the passage as a personal responsibility, are also correct (imo).
What about the setting though?
An organised assembly of saved baptised believers is very different than a group of christians un-associated.
The Holy Spirit will dwell 'in the midst' of one of His churches. He wont do that with a group of christians un-associated. They might all have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them, but that does not have the same status as a church God would call His own.
Matthew 18 is where the 'in the midst' dwelling comes in.
It's a different and very special thing to have the Holy Spirit comforting a church family.
The verse can apply to an individual if it were in a different setting. In this case it isn't removed from the local church sense.
Like the verse in Revelation-- Behold I stand at the door and knock... etc..
This could easily be about an individual receiving salvation, because the verse looks like salvation, but the setting is churches. It's about Jesus figuratively knocking on the door of a local church.. or the institution of the church to let Him take hold.
If a group of Christian businessmen meet for breakfast, fellowship, and prayer for each other, are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit isn't in attendance?
Did not the Lord Jesus clearly state that when "two or three" are gathered "in My (His) Name" that He is in the midst? Did He indicate that it had to be "an organized assembly?"
Jesus' local church is what is the subject of Him saying 'I will build my church'. This is what is also being referred to in Matthew 18. It is an organised New Testament church.
A blast from the past, the definition of church given in his Baptist Polity class at Maranatha Baptist Bible College now Maranatha Baptist University
the late Dr. Richard Weeks said:
Actually, the statement given by Christ is not directed toward the church, rather the statement by that Apostle in which is a foundational truth that the church is built upon.
However, that is not the only and end all of the work of the Holy Spirit among groupings of believers.
My point being that your statement excluded such groupings, and that was the point of my post
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