Featured Independent baptists and the doctrine of a universal body of Christ

To which Jerusalem was He referring - old or new?
Biggrin
HankD

 

I am on the other side of the semantic viewpoint, but I agree this is not a fighting issue.

 

OK lets bury the hatchet... NO NOT THERE!

Biggrin

HankD

 

Wives, dogs - wrong sense IMO (BTW, I didn't choose to put those the 2 nouns together).

The weather report talks about the local weather (Washington, Oregon, etc...) and then the weather for the entire region of the Americas.

When I hear of the The "universal" church I think of the collective spirits of born-agains from Pentecost till today assembled on earth and in heaven.

Hebrews 12:23 ... the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

The local church are those born-agains assembled in the church extension at my geographic location where I am a member.

In either case I understand each side of the coin and pragmatically adapt to the proper sense.

Now we can further strain away at the gnat and talk about - when did the church begin? The Day of Pentecost or some other time like at the foundation of the world or perhaps in eternity past?

Tongue in cheek of course (although we have had such discussions).

HankD

 

What was the first stone that was laid, in the building of the church of God? Is it being built with stones?

 

Permit an ex-fundie to provide some thoughts for a moment.
I have read most of the works Jack Hyles, and listened to thousands of hours combined of Ruckman, Hyles, Lacey, Steve Anderson. I also hold the English Bible is the Authorized Version, even before my IFB days. If you do not, that's your descion.

You point out local churches. Please explain where Pensacola Baptist Institute, Faithful Word, and First Baptist Hammond are found in the Bible. They are not. The churches were known by the names of the nearest city or region; Smyrna, Thessilonia, Ephesus, Rome, Galatia, Macedinoa, Thyartia…

However, here is the problem: Baptists held this until the New School vs. Old School (primitive, denoting original) split, with certian exceptions. While a reformed confession, the 1689 has a good bit about the fact God chose his elect, http://www.1689.com/confession.html#Ch. 26
That ought to give a large amount of scripture to study.
Old School dates itself to AD 60. Perhaps the earliest the free will type can date is about 1605-08.

The main issue here is that God is not resticted to a local body.
Ta ta for now.

 

Watt, it is flat you are not entirely sure on this matter; your surmisings here make it practically impossible to understand or respond. It is also flat you have an agenda. Ranting about baptism being required (I do need to get my book on that published) is a foolish statement.
I also note you totally dodged the main point of my post with the fact any church calling itself beyond its city or region is defying the scriptures.

Perhaps your folly may be remedied by some basic gospel doctrine. Saint Mark's gospel 16.16 states, He that believeth & is baptized shall be saved; and he that believeth not shall be damned.

Romans 6.3, 4
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I Cor. 1.13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 12.13

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3.27

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Colossians 2.12


God does not in any manner dwell in anything but his temple, the human body. It seems much learning hath made thee mad. How can God dwell in a building where a preacher is glorified more than he, being raise up in a pulpit? He no longer has an house of hands, but a kingdom without hands.
Foolish Galatian, who hath bewitched you; have you not read, And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people?

A man cried to Jesus being ignorant of the Bible, never having been baptized, but asks mercy on a sinner. He lived a gargantuanly sinful life. He dies.
An Baptist prays a quick sinner's prayer, joins the church, lives religiously. He is baptized instantly upon profession.
However, his heart never trusted in the silly words of a silly gospel preacher. Declare the just one.
Joining a local church is not by baptism, for joining the body of Christ is. There is no Scripture supporting such an anathema. Why not be honorable? Study those verses in the 1689 so you can actually know what the universal church doctrine is.

 

Is the earthly house of tabernacle of the soul, the human body, baptized into the body of Christ, the church, Jerusalem above the mother of us all, for the purpose of the body, having been redeemed from death and corruption, to be born into the kingdom of God, spiritual, immortal and incorruptible, at the coming again of Christ?

Rom 8:11, 1 Cor 15:35-53, 2 Cor 5:1-8, Eph 1:13,14

And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. Matt 20:23

The church?

 

It will take me a moment to reference all those verses. If you think God dwells in as he did building alone in Solomon's day, you've missed a boat by approximately three thousand years, and it's soon to sail away. Good news is that this gospel ship has not left— yet.

How ironic you quote from Ephesians 1, yet you disregard predestination by God's choice through Jesus' blood!
Holy Ghost regeneration is the means of salvation, 2 Corinthians 5.17. That's got nothing to do with the fundamentalist fundamental lack of understanding of what is defined by the universal church. You did not choose Christ because he chooses according to that predestinate elect, Romans 8.28-30, John 6.44-70, 15, fundies seemingly have no answer regarding, save to ignorantly yell ISRAEL then call someone who tries to correct that floppy theology antisemetic by going to John ten.
We are not suggesting the invisible church is replacing the local body. If you did not try to take verses or concepts out of conception, you might, percho, understand the other Paragraphs in Of the Church affirm mandatory joining of some sound local church. Need they be quoted?

As to you reference of 2 Corinthians 5.1-8, it affirms what we are discussing; the regenerate human body is our temporal home. I will refrain from amillenialism as this is beyond the post.
I sure do long that after the tribulation we immidiately will be with
the Lord, to be rid of this infirmed body. However, this house shall pass away. Then are we in an altogether different tabernacle called heaven. Oh, let the LORD be not displeased, and catch me up there!

Clearly, you have not read I John 5.1 as you would understand whatvin John three Jesus was talking about; you ARE born of God, not to be born, if you have believed. How can you be born again if your birth is pending?

As to the eighteen verses in 1 Corinthians 15, that is reallyba redirection. I'll again point out you do not understand the idea here. You're talking about two things not correlated and should read the passage cautiously to see what it means. Non-sequiter.

Romans 8.11 is a wonderful proof text of monergism; how else can dead men get to heaven, much less if there is nobody to preach to that person? You'd think a bum like Lazurus would get a shout of Godly joy if he were in heaven as much as one hearing the gospel and believing thereon, not by some fellow telling him to turn from his sins and join a church.
It sure must have been 2015 years ago quite the thing doe the Messias himself to witness to you; yet even the woman among the throng had her issue healed.

You, percho, did raise some good points; I always love a good study to be washed in the waters of the word. However,
your nitpicking is very much a double standard as you did not deal with the Scriptures in the Confession, and you did not address the at-hand issue with those verses 28.

Will you admit you are simply dodging the fact you do not understand what the invisible or universal church would be?

 

We could close the thread at that!

 

There is much to agree with how you rendered this passage.

However, the church is the collective of individuals. The plurals are directed to the collective of individual believer responsibility.

When a teacher tells children to clean up the room, each individual is being addressed, that the address is to the collective would not diminish the addressing to the individual. Each being responsible for their own contribution not only to the mess but cleaning up that mess.

Paul was telling individuals that they are responsible for the collective mess, and that as a collective of individuals they are held responsible (the individuals) to clean up. I like the NASB of the passage that shows that individuals are the emphasis.

"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?"
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So, in a way, I think you are very correct as well as those who look upon the passage as a personal responsibility, are also correct (imo).

 

If a group of Christian businessmen meet for breakfast, fellowship, and prayer for each other, are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit isn't in attendance?

Did not the Lord Jesus clearly state that when "two or three" are gathered "in My (His) Name" that He is in the midst? Did He indicate that it had to be "an organized assembly?"

 

Actually, the statement given by Christ is not directed toward the church, rather the statement by that Apostle in which is a foundational truth that the church is built upon.
However, that is not the only and end all of the work of the Holy Spirit among groupings of believers.

My point being that your statement excluded such groupings, and that was the point of my post