Jarthur001
Active Member
Tha's ok. You can still keep posting here.ReformedBaptist said:
I don't need a long list of verses, but please give your top two support verse. Three if you must.
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Infant Salvation
- Thread starter ReformedBaptist
- Start date
I did not say we were not born into sin. We are covered by the blood of Jesus. When we reach the age of atonement and we know we are sinners and need Jesus for salvation. We either accept Jesus as our savior or do not. this is when we become a non-christian, when we chose to take that road.
ByGracethroughFaith
New Member
ReformedBaptist said:
There was a time when I believed that also. Along with the S&G, and flood issues, I asked myself some pointed questions.
1) If all infants go to heaven and life begins at conception, does that mean that the Lord is building His church through the abortion holocaust? If that truly was the case, there would be no sense letting them grow up to reject Christ, why not just preach the killing of infants to send them all into heaven?
That sounded too much like Islam for me.
2) If we are not even able to make a 100% certain judgment regarding the salvation of a professing christian standing right next to us, why do we seek it for infants?
Those questions both threw a wrench into that doctrine for me, so ever since then the Lord has settled me with the understanding that "the Lord knoweth them that are His", and where He has obscured things, I try not to intrude on His judgment.
Just some 'denominationless' thoughts....
BGTF
Jarthur001
Active Member
Good...then we agree on this.moondg said:
One last thing on this part before we move on.
Man years ago, Pelagius, as you may know thought that man was born neither good nor bad. Pelagius said that man must learn good, or bad from others. The good could be only seen in God, Pelagius said. So...one need only to exposed to God, and man with a pure free will, in most all cases will become good, and then choose God.
This idea was rejected by the church then and has always been rejected. From this view came a Pauline/Augustine view that man was BAD...and sinner at birth. Nearly every church group since that time rejects the Pelagius view on TD. All of them that I know of fully say that man is TD. Now all do not handly this TD as the Calvinist do. Some...even most of believers are Semi-Pelagians.
This is the 1st place I have even meet people that did not believe man is not born a sinner. This is not a over statement, but the facts. There are only a handful that believes this.
So anyway....I'll stop on this part and let you put your input if you wish.
What does the age of accountability mean? The reason I ask...this is used a lot on this subject. I want to be clear as to your meaning.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
50 post and a dollar will buy ya a coke.moondg said:
Brother Bob
New Member
If its ok for me to put my two cents worth in, If infants are born as sinners, that would mean their soul was dead in sin. Then, who is it that "the soul that sinneth, shall die?"
Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Also, if dead from birth in sin, then who are those listed below:
Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Also James, I want to thank you for offering to come to the hospital in Charleston for me, and giving me your cell phone number along with home phone. I will not forget.
BBob,
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Jarthur001
Active Member
Brother Bob said:
Hello Bob,
I'm glad you are better.
The verse you asked about is in Eze 18. I see this is one of Webdogs verses the last few days. What does this mean?
Notice the context....
This is saying God id in full control of all things. Your life is in his hands.
the soul that sinneth, it shall die
If a person is guilty of gross sins, and continues in them, they will pay with personally suffer, by enduring one calamity after another, even to the point of death if God chooses.
Brother Bob
New Member
To the point of death would be the death of the body, not the soul.
Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
James; It seems to me it is saying all souls are His alright but that every soul will be responsible for its own sin. So, if it is already dead at birth James, how can it die?
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Jarthur001
Active Member
moondg said:
Jarthur001
Active Member
The death it is speaking of a persons life. Ok..then why does it say soul?Brother Bob said:
Soul can speak of a persons being, as well as his soul. The life of all men are in the hands of God. If that person lives in sin...with never thinking of God nor Gods ways, God is saying His life is in his hands...and he as a living person...will die.
Life in gen 1 is the same word as soul in your verse.
again...
again...
here it is used as person...
again...
The context tells us it is a life...a person.
Its like saying....."if one more soul calls me tonight, i'm going to scream"
This is not really talking about the soul...but the person.
Brother Bob
New Member
I was answering to this.
You may be right James, I am not sure, they used the same word for both, so I guess it how ever we understand the context. sin of the father, sins of the son.
5315
nephesh
neh'-fesh
from 'naphash' (5314); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
That is the trouble with Hebrew and Greek, they have so many different meanings to one word.
I am glad you pointed that out, now I have an answer for those who say that fish have souls. I never could figure that one out.
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But wait... how about babies? Babies have no free will. Are you saying God elected to have them go to Heaven? God allowed them to go to heaven.
what did they do to deserve to die?
if so..then this is election just as the Calvinist believe. God chooses who He wants....and in this case God chooses all babies. He knew they would die, before He made them,(God allowed them to be conceived even though he knew they would die. This is free will) and He planned to elect them to salvation. Is this what your saying?
what did they do to deserve to die?
if so..then this is election just as the Calvinist believe. God chooses who He wants....and in this case God chooses all babies. He knew they would die, before He made them,(God allowed them to be conceived even though he knew they would die. This is free will) and He planned to elect them to salvation. Is this what your saying?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Bob...I think all the others left us.Brother Bob said:
well...I think that is it for me tonight as well.
Have a good one....and I want to make sure I see you on here again.
deal?
Brother Bob
New Member
Ok James; May God Bless you, we differ on doctrine, but I think our hearts are alike. nite.........
Good nite to you to Moon...........
Good nite to you to Moon...........
All Have Sinned Before Birth ...
... through Adam --see Romans 5 . Death entered the world because of sin . The entire world is guilty before God --- no exceptions . Babies are included in the guilt . Babies are not born in a state of innocence or sinlessness . They don't enter life with a blank slate -- tabla rasa .
At least one poster has said that babies come into this world "spiritually alive ." That is patently untrue . It is against Scripture . Sentimentality , conjecture and personal philosophy intrude too much -- the Bible takes a backseat all too often with some of you .
... through Adam --see Romans 5 . Death entered the world because of sin . The entire world is guilty before God --- no exceptions . Babies are included in the guilt . Babies are not born in a state of innocence or sinlessness . They don't enter life with a blank slate -- tabla rasa .
At least one poster has said that babies come into this world "spiritually alive ." That is patently untrue . It is against Scripture . Sentimentality , conjecture and personal philosophy intrude too much -- the Bible takes a backseat all too often with some of you .
Babies are not born in a state of innocence or sinlessness . They don't enter life with a blank slate -- tabla rasa .
Who said they were born sinless? I did not see that, they are covered by the same blood we are. That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about if they go to heaven.
Who said they were born sinless? I did not see that, they are covered by the same blood we are. That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about if they go to heaven.
Brother Bob
New Member
A sprout of a tree or bush, has no fruit, neither good or evil. To say a infant is already fallen in sin, you have to use scripture to men, not infants.
The children that Jesus said do not forbid them to come unto me,for such IS the Kingdom. If some of you picked up a child you would say the opposite. When and what sin did it commit. What Law did it transgress. When did it walk in the flesh? Sure it takes the blood and Jesus resurrection, for that is how "death" is conquered. Adam brought that death by his sin and passed the death on to us all. None of us have to sin, to die the natural death, Adam took care of that for us. None of us would ever get out of the grave either, including infants, if not for the blood and resurrection of Christ. Everyone will be resurrected, but to have to suffer the second death, you have to have sinned against God. Infants never reached the knowledge to sin against God and neither did the mental impaired. You don't have no scripture to say so, you just have scripture to men that you apply to infants and you "suppose".
I said there were many who believed infants went to hell and I am glad now some of you have come forward and being honest about your belief. I admire someone who will stand for what they believe and not try and hide it because it does not go with the flow.
The children that Jesus said do not forbid them to come unto me,for such IS the Kingdom. If some of you picked up a child you would say the opposite. When and what sin did it commit. What Law did it transgress. When did it walk in the flesh? Sure it takes the blood and Jesus resurrection, for that is how "death" is conquered. Adam brought that death by his sin and passed the death on to us all. None of us have to sin, to die the natural death, Adam took care of that for us. None of us would ever get out of the grave either, including infants, if not for the blood and resurrection of Christ. Everyone will be resurrected, but to have to suffer the second death, you have to have sinned against God. Infants never reached the knowledge to sin against God and neither did the mental impaired. You don't have no scripture to say so, you just have scripture to men that you apply to infants and you "suppose".
I said there were many who believed infants went to hell and I am glad now some of you have come forward and being honest about your belief. I admire someone who will stand for what they believe and not try and hide it because it does not go with the flow.
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Brother Bob
New Member
James;
We also have the same Hebrew word for soul in this passage.
Ps 23:
1: The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2: He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3: He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5: Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6: Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
5315
nephesh
neh'-fesh
from 'naphash' (5314); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
It is context and context is whether you have sinned or not sinned. I can see where it could be taken either way, but I personally believe its the soul and not the body.
Eze 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
We also have the same Hebrew word for soul in this passage.
Ps 23:
1: The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2: He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3: He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5: Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6: Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
5315
nephesh
neh'-fesh
from 'naphash' (5314); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
It is context and context is whether you have sinned or not sinned. I can see where it could be taken either way, but I personally believe its the soul and not the body.
Eze 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
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