Infant Salvation

[Brother Bob]

3: The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4: Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5: Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6: Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7

Are they born with teeth? Not in this, just had to respond when someone uses one line for doctrine. Extreme lengths to prove a point of their theology.
Great teeth! they must of been fully developed.

 

[JustChristian]

Mr

Hey dear sister,

I think quite the opposite. All who are elect are elect not because of anything in themselves, whether it be foreseen faith or action. They are elect because it pleased God to elect them.

Salvation without hearing the gospel and accepting it is hyper-Calvinism by definition.

 

[pinoybaptist]

that would be the one.

is speaking lies a sin?

Is that a serious question, brother ? I should think it is, speaking lies, that is.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Salvation without hearing the gospel and accepting it is hyper-Calvinism by definition.

Not to derail the thread, but where is the Scripture that says one must hear the gospel and accept it in order to be eternally saved ?

I do know of certain Scriptures where the gospel is said to save, but I understand it to mean saved in the doctrinal sense, in the credal sense, the moral sense, and all that has to do with one's existence here in time, but eternal salvation is surely OF GOD alone.

 

[Jarthur001]

Are they born with teeth? Not in this, just had to respond when someone uses one line for doctrine. Extreme lengths to prove a point of their theology.
Great teeth! they must of been fully developed.

Hello Bob,

Psa 58 is about the wicked. reread it and you will see the full meaning.

one statement is that they will LIE from the beginning.

Is this sin?

 

[Jarthur001]

Is that a serious question, brother ? I should think it is, speaking lies, that is.

yes i'm very serious.

You see wither or not infants are saved, has nothing to do with their condition as sinners.

We all are sinners. Some of us are sinners saved by grace.

 

[moondg]

Are they born with teeth? Not in this, just had to respond when someone uses one line for doctrine. Extreme lengths to prove a point of their theology.
Bro. Bob who was using one line for doctrine?

 

[Brother Bob]

Bro. Bob who was using one line for doctrine?

Not you moondg.

 

[Jarthur001]

Are they born with teeth? Not in this, just had to respond when someone uses one line for doctrine. Extreme lengths to prove a point of their theology.
Bro. Bob who was using one line for doctrine?

ou + ou = ou

right?

 

[Brother Bob]

Hi James, how are you?

Unless they are born with "great teeth" James, they they must of been fully grown, if their teeth were fully grown, and of course they went forth from the womb. It says they are "estranged from the womb", that means to be separated from the womb James. Of course again they went forth from the womb. I never knew a infant with full grown teeth, speaking lies. Have you? There has to be some symbolism here, "he washed his feet in their blood", you ever hear of that?

Psa 58: 6
1: Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
2: Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3: The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4: Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5: Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6: Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7: Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
8: As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
9: Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.
10: The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11: So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

 

[webdog]

No, what I am saying is that John 9 is not addressing the doctrine of original sin. However, it is addressing a specific sin of those Pharisees. I think its a misapplication of this passage to take their willful sins and make generalizations about the doctrine of original sin.

Even if it is addressing specific sins...the point remains Christ told them there sin does not depart them. I'm sure they are not the only ones in history whose sin stays with them.

The doctrine of original sin is taught in Scripture, and that clearly, in other passages and in no way constradicts or conflicts with what is written in John 9. That's all I was saying.

...or more accurately, you believe original sin is taught in Scripture.

 

[Brother Bob]

ReformedBaptist; Here are some Scriptures that allude to the belief that the children of believers will be saved:

LUK 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Can anyone prove these are only children of the "elect"? No one else ask, so I must.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi James, how are you?
Psa 58: 6



1: Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
2: Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3: The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4: Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5: Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6: Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7: Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
8: As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
9: Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.
10: The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11: So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

Hello Bob,

I am good thanks for asking. I have been very busy and had little time to play/debate/chat. Its good to do it a bit tonight.

Let me show you what I see in this passage and see if you agree.

1: Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
2: Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3: The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4: Their (the weaked) poison is like the poison of a serpent: they (the wicked) are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5: Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely. (still talking about the wicked)
6: Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD. (still talking about the wicked. The Hebrew word here kĕphiyr is found in most places as "lions". Like in this verse... Psa 35:17 Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions. Therefore do not only look at the word "young" in chapter 58.)
7: Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces. (still talking about the wicked)
8: As a snail which melteth, let every one of them (the wicked) pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they (here Altaschith is asking God to kill the wicked before they are born) may not see the sun.
9: Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them (the wicked) away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.
10: The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11: So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

do you agree?

BTW Bob,

I hope you are doing better. The last I heard you were not well.


In Christ...James

 

[webdog]

that would be the one.

is speaking lies a sin?

Ever hear a baby speak...let alone speak lies, James?

Can we say "hyperbole"?

 

[Jarthur001]

Can anyone prove these are only children of the "elect"? No one else ask, so I must.

I'm not sure they are children of the elect, unless you are saying this as in the Sonship of the believer.

 

[Jarthur001]

Ever hear a baby speak...let alone speak lies, James?

Can we say "hyperbole"?

It very well could be hyperbole. But this does not change the meaning of the passage. If these are real lies or not, the point remains.... they (mankind) are wicked from the womb. no?


BTW....still waitng on this...

ou + ou = ou right?

 

[Brother Bob]

I have another heart blockage and they can't do anymore for me. I do alright though, thanks for asking.
It is good to be debating you again. I will try and show what I think this scripture says:

1: Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
2: Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth. (Still, sons of men)
3: The wicked are estranged from the womb:(means to be separated from the womb) they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4: Their (the weaked) poison is like the poison of a serpent: they (the wicked) are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5: Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely. (still talking about the wicked)
6: Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD. (still talking about the wicked. The Hebrew word here kĕphiyr is found in most places as "lions". Like in this verse... Psa 35:17 Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions. Therefore do not only look at the word "young" in chapter 58.)
7: Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces. (still talking about the wicked)
8: As a snail which melteth, let every one of them (the wicked) pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they (here Altaschith is asking God to kill the wicked before they are born) (it is saying let them be as if they had not been born) may not see the sun.
9: Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them (the wicked) away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.
10: The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. (has to be symbolism)
11: So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

We have to look at it with reason, a babe does not have teeth, much less "great teeth", so it would have to be after they went forth from the womb and were grown enough to have great teeth, whatever that means.

 

[Jarthur001]

I have another heart blockage and they can't do anymore for me. I do alright though, thanks for asking.
It is good to be debating you again. I will try and show what I think this scripture says:



We have to look at it with reason, a babe does not have teeth, much less "great teeth", so it would have to be after they went forth from the womb and were grown enough to have great teeth, whatever that means.

Yes...and this is part of the point of webdog.

But it does not change the meaning even if there is no lies.

Lets say this is only a metaphor ....

1) what does it say about the wicked from their birth?

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes...and this is part of the point of webdog.

But it does not change the meaning even if there is no lies.

Lets say this is only a metaphor ....

1) what does it say about the wicked from their birth?

Birth here is spoke of when they have "great teeth", you have to take that into account.
Were they evil when born, I really do not think so, but chose the wrong path when the Light appeared to them. I think they were neither good or bad as far as wickeness is concerned, but when they were enlightened by the Spirit and given understanding, they chose darkness. So the first state of them as far as good or evil was evil, but when they had "great teeth".

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

 

[Jarthur001]

another good one...

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

ou+ou=ou