Infant Salvation

[Jarthur001]

Birth here is spoke of when they have "great teeth", you have to take that into account.
Were they evil when born, I really do not think so, but chose the wrong path when the Light appeared to them. I think they were neither good or bad as far as wickeness is concerned, but when they were enlightened by the Spirit and given understanding, they chose darkness. So the first state of them as far as good or evil was evil, but when they had "great teeth".

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Bob,

I just do not see this passages subject as babies. It is talking about the wicked and tells of the time which they were born. But lets say this is true. Lets say that you are right here. Lets say your meaning of verse 6 is that the teeth are babies teeth.

6: Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD

So...what does verse 6 mean to you?

 

[Jarthur001]

another good one......

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

going by this verse....how were we made sinners?

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob,

I just do not see this passages subject as babies. It is talking about the wicked and tells of the time which they were born. But lets say this is true. Lets say that you are right here. Lets say your meaning of verse 6 is that the teeth are babies teeth.

Quote:
6: Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD

So...what does verse 6 mean to you?

Thanks for going this far with me, but it says "great teeth", which I don't take to be babie teeth..........

another good one......

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

going by this verse....how were we made sinners?

Well, we were born with the ability to sin when we come to know God and what sin is, nothing we can do can change that and when we come to know God, we will not glorify Him as God and sin. As the Bible says, all have sinned. I do not take this back to infants. And then we sin after the simitude of Adam who started it all.......... I am sure this is not what you wanted to hear, but what I believe.
It also says, by one man many we were made righteous and that was not at birth either.

Neither one of these were at birth.

Rom 5:18Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[Jarthur001]

Thanks for going this far with me, but it says "great teeth", which I don't take to be babie teeth..........

ok, so..... Is one verse talking about babies and one about older men? Are both wicked?

Well, we were born with the ability to sin when we come to know God and what sin is, nothing we can do can change that and when we come to know God, we will not glorify Him as God and sin. As the Bible says, all have sinned. I do not take this back to infants. And then we sin after the simitude of Adam who started it all.......... I am sure this is not what you wanted to hear, but what I believe.
It also says, by one man many we were made righteous and that was not at birth either.

Neither one of these were at birth.

They do indeed have the ability to sin....

But this is not WHY we are sinners. The verse clearly says we are sinners because of Adam sin. right?

 

[Rippon]

BB: " Well , we were born with the ability to sin when we come to know God and what sin is ... " How wrong you are again BB . We are born as babies of wrath . His wrath is upon babies because they are sinners -- not innocent . And I haven't encountered it put that way before : ... the ability to sin..." ! That's not such an honorable achievement .

 

[moondg]

BB: " Well , we were born with the ability to sin when we come to know God and what sin is ... " How wrong you are again BB . We are born as babies of wrath . His wrath is upon babies because they are sinners -- not innocent .
You have got to be joking. You think Gods wrath is on Babies!!
How can you say you are a Christian and think that way?
:godisgood:

 

[Jarthur001]

BB: " Well , we were born with the ability to sin when we come to know God and what sin is ... " How wrong you are again BB . We are born as babies of wrath . His wrath is upon babies because they are sinners -- not innocent .
You have got to be joking. You think Gods wrath is on Babies!!
How can you say you are a Christian and think that way?
:godisgood:

Rippon can speak for himself....

But I do....but only babies by nature.

 

[moondg]

But I do....but only babies by nature.[/quote]
What other kind of babies are there? I feel sorry for you, I could not serve a God that would send a child to hell.

 

[Rippon]

Hi MD ( Don't you feel good being called that ? ) , nice to meet you .

Are we born dead in sin or not ? Are all under the wrath of God , or not ? Are childern ( even babies ) under the wrath of God ? If you say no , then you are maintaining that they are sinless and innocent . I am sorry to inform you that you are very mistaken . The Word of God will not sustain your contention .

Check these verses out to verify where I am coming from : Gen.8:21 ; Job 15:14 , 25:4 ; Ps. 51:3 , 58:3 ; Is. 48:8 ; Eph.2:3 . And remember that the Bible does not contradict itself .

 

[webdog]

Are we born dead in sin or not ? Are all under the wrath of God , or not ? Are childern ( even babies ) under the wrath of God ? If you say no , then you are maintaining that they are sinless and innocent .

The answers are no...but it doesn't mean they are innocent, just sinless. They still have a sin nature and appointed by God once to die.

 

[webdog]

another good one......

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

going by this verse....how were we made sinners?

We were made sinners by the sin nature passed down. We weren't "made sinners", though, but will sin due to the sin nature after the fall.

 

[Rippon]

WD , Christ was and is the spotless , innocent , sinless Lamb of God . No person ( and babies are persons , right ? ) is truly 'innocent' , becase it is equivalent to being sinless . Certain folks in Scripture were regarded as innocent of certain misdeeds . However , that should not be equated as being sinless . Babies are neither innocent nor sinless -- they are under the wrath of God like all people before regeneration .

 

[webdog]

WD , Christ was and is the spotless , innocent , sinless Lamb of God . No person ( and babies are persons , right ? ) is truly 'innocent' , becase it is equivalent to being sinless . Certain folks in Scripture were regarded as innocent of certain misdeeds . However , that should not be equated as being sinless . Babies are neither innocent nor sinless -- they are under the wrath of God like all people before regeneration .

If you have read this entire thread, I've never called them "innocent". They are found "not guilty" judicially by God. They are indeed sinless. What sin has an aborted fetus committed (and don't say Adam's, we are held accountable for OUR OWN sin)? That's ludicrous

 

[Rippon]

So you place innocence on a higher plane than sinlessness ? Aren't you going to answer my scriptural citations ? Back up your view with the Bible and not your personal philosophy .

 

[webdog]

Adam and Eve were innocent and sinless prior to the fall. The innocence was taken away from mankind with the fall, that is why it is appointed unto man ONCE to die. An infant is brought into this world sinless, but with the yoke of the sin nature due to the curse. If we were innocent at birth, we would never die even the first death, and we know that is not the case.

I don't have the time to put each of those verses in it's correct context at the moment. Both sides can pull a dozen individual verses to support their sides, so that doesn't amount to much.

 

[Rippon]

WB: so you don't think it is worth the effort to defend your position with Scripture ? Then I will repeat , do not rely on your personal philosophy . If "the other side" has a lot of Scripture that opposes your view then you owe it to yourself (as one who professes to believe the Bible) to show biblical evidence to the contrary . Otherwise why are we here ? Is it it just to share our ideas without any biblical mooring ?

 

[Jarthur001]

But I do....but only babies by nature.

What other kind of babies are there? I feel sorry for you, I could not serve a God that would send a child to hell.[/QUOTE]
I said nothing about hell.

You asked ....Are childern ( babies ) under the wrath of God ?

I only gave a Bible answer.

Let me ask you. When does a person become a non-believer?

 

[Jarthur001]

We were made sinners by the sin nature passed down. We weren't "made sinners", though, but will sin due to the sin nature after the fall.

Well...

In a way I can live with this answer. But you are splitting hairs for some reason. On the other hand I see no need to split hairs.

You just admitted that babies have a sin nature. Christ was not born with this sin nature. Christ did not sin.

I was born with this sin nature...I sinned. The sin nature made me sin. My sin originated (original sin) in me, because of the sin nature.

You have this sin nature as well.

We all have it. This is why the verse clearly says...."we are made sinners"....because sinners will sin.

We are not born perfect...and then learn sin. Sin is part of us...and sinners sin.

 

[Jarthur001]

WD , Christ was and is the spotless , innocent , sinless Lamb of God . No person ( and babies are persons , right ? ) is truly 'innocent' , becase it is equivalent to being sinless . Certain folks in Scripture were regarded as innocent of certain misdeeds . However , that should not be equated as being sinless . Babies are neither innocent nor sinless -- they are under the wrath of God like all people before regeneration .

Amen brother.

as I have said over and over...

ou+ou=ou

NONE ARE RIGHTEOUS. Not one?

NO NOT ONE!!


Now...does babies go to hell....or heaven?

That is another subject.

 

[Brother Bob]

BB: " Well , we were born with the ability to sin when we come to know God and what sin is ... " How wrong you are again BB . We are born as babies of wrath . His wrath is upon babies because they are sinners -- not innocent . And I haven't encountered it put that way before : ... the ability to sin..." ! That's not such an honorable achievement .

Sure glad Jesus was strong and willing enough to set the record straight, guess He knew some would be doubting that infants were without sin, even though they had the nature to sin, when they came to know God.

Mat 19:14But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.


Mar 10:14But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. (notice already is, not going to be)

Luk 18:16But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (notice the heart was then darkened, must of not been dark before)

Mat 12:35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. (notice "man")

Mat 12:33¶Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit. (notice "tree")

Notice He said "tree" and not "little bushes"!

Notice this is all scripture and not my private interptation. I agree the scripture does not cross itself and have given reasons, such as "great teeth" for my answers. How many have seen infants with " great teeth", also, when did God wash His feet in the blood of infants?

When you say that infants are under the "wrath of God", please tell me why you would not be saying God sends infants to hell? I do not see how you can have it "both ways"?