Infants in hell

[Martin Marprelate]

Please educate yourself:

http://www.gracebaptistassembly.org.uk/gba2/wp-content/uploads/docs/1689-1966 Synopsis.pdf

That is very interesting. I am staring at two hard copies of the Confession, neither of which contains the word 'elect.'

'In the Westminster Confession the word 'elect' is present, while it is deleted in the 1689 Confession' (Samuel Waldron, 'A Modern Exposition of the 1689 Baptist Confession,' page 149).

However, having looked on-line, I see that the word is present in several on-line versions. I will see what I can find out.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

He lives under "the effects" of the curse...but he isn't "cursed"...

Then you agree with me. How wise of you.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Then you agree with me. How wise of you.

I assure you...
I don't agree with you one whit.

I agree with you on no account.

Other than that we are agreed that Jesus Christ came to die for sinners and that he was the God-man who saves us by his death and bodily resurrection. And that he lives to judge the quick and the dead at the day of his coming unto eternal life or damnation....

We are absolutely unequivocally not otherwise agreed.

Humans are not born guilty before God...nor are they under a variance of accurssedness before him due to any form of either "Original Sin...Nor any form of an Original Guilt"....

I deny that...
I call your Theology Manichean heresy.
I call Augustine an heretic.
I call John Calvin an heretic.
I call Charles Spurgeon an heretic.
I call John Gill an heretic.
I deny your Theology...
We are absolutely not agreed.

 

[JonC]

That's true...all mankind is "under the curse"...but, is "the curse"...all persons born of man are condemned by God? Or, is the curse exactly what Genesis spoke of..[snip]…That's not Scripture.Scripture says God cursed the ground.[/.

I was thinking more of “cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them”. God said that. And God said that about man, not dirt. And Christ redeemed us from this curse by becoming a curse for us. God said that to, through the Apostle Paul. Add to that Romans 5 and we get a good picture where we seem to disagree. And yes, that IS Scripture. It is just not the Scripture to which you were referring.

Calvinists insists ….]

What made you think that I represented Calvinists, or cared what they insist?

All humans have "human nature"...that makes them humans.....There's no Scripture which demands that humans are guilty of Adam's crime in perpetuity such that it consequences a change in their nature and being....IF it's so....Than it would be an indemnible part of human nature to be a partisan of Adam's crime....Except that Jesus was ALSO a Son of Adam, and yet he was without sin.

Yes, I agree. I have not said otherwise. Paul is clear that all are guilty but not guilty of Adam’s crime. And yes, I also agree that our natures do not mean that we have sinned. As I stated, Scripture does not deal with the salvation of infants who die. Scripture deals with the redemption of sinners. Our natures are inclined to the flesh (to meet our needs, our desires). And I do believe that Christ had a human nature.

Jesus was tempted as a man. I suppose it could be that when Jesus was a teenager and Ahuva walked by wearing her yoga pants and sports bra, he may have been tempted in the flesh. But he did not sin.

What made you think I believed Jesus didn’t have a human nature?

Than, your Theology is inconsistent and illogical.If men are condemned because of an inherited nature from Adam and they are partakers in that sin, than infants are absolutely positively and without excuse condemned as sinners and fellow partakers in that sin.

You mean “then”. And my theology is very consistent and logical. Men are under the condemnation of death (we die) because of Adam’s transgression. Death entered the world through sin. God subjected Creation to futility. Unless you are suggesting those who died in infancy did not really die, I do not see your point. I am not saying that they are subject to the “second death”, as “death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire”. I am saying that death entered the world through sin. That creation groans for glorification. That God subjected the world to futility. That these babies died.

God DID NOT "curse" humanity...

Jesus Christ was a human Jon....as human as you and I...and he was not accursed.

Scripture says otherwise. God cursed those who do not obey all things written in the law, to obey them. Paul is clear that this is all men. And Scripture is also very clear that Christ did, indeed, become a curse for us. One of those things written in the law is cursed is anyone who hangs from a tree. Guess what….

I'd say that....BUT YOU DON'T
In your schema...everyone including infants are partakers in ADAM'S SIN...
NOT THEIRS.

What, brother, gives you the authority to state that I believe something contrary to what I just said I believed? Do you not see the foolishness in this? If I said, “you say that, but you are really a Calvinist because you believe in four of the five points”….wouldn’t you think me a fool?

I said that we are condemned for our sins. Guess what? I mean that we are condemned for our sins. We are under condemnation in the sense that we will die. But Christ conquered death and we have hope in the resurrection. Maybe men are condemned because Light has come into the world and they prefer darkness because their deeds are evil

It's critical to the Theological construct you adopt.

The word is “IMPOSE”. You mean to say it’s critical to the Theological construct that you impose upon me. You do not know my “theological construct”.

They don't defy God, they don't rebel against God....They neither reject Grace nor accept it...

No kidding, Sherlock. What makes you think that I believe those infants rebel against God? What makes you believe I think they reject grace?

I find comfort in the painfully obvious...that my miscarried dead child was the size of an orange, and he didn't posses some vicious condemning facet of wickedness from Adam which constituted his nature...

He couldn't talk, he couldn't breathe on his own.He could neither accept nor reject God.

I stand corrected. When I said those who have lost children find comfort in God, and that God loves us and is in control….I was speaking of my experience. I apologize for implying others find comfort in God rather than in the idea their child had no opportunity to sin, and did not mean to speak for you.

Accept Jon...according to your Theology...God hated that child of yours who died and it was worthy only of perpetual torture in hell because it was only evil and odious in his sight....That's the doctrine.

Please be VERY careful here, brother. Much time has passed, but that does not mean I am willing to entertain the loss of my child being treated in such a trivial manner. According to my theology the loss of my child was indeed due to sin and the curse as creation itself eagerly awaits for the revealing of the sons of God, when it will be set free from decay, from its slavery to corruption and into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. You may deal with what I post, but don’t pretend to know what I believe.

God, absolutely does not "love" unregenerate rebellious sinners who disobey him.

Apparently we have different versions of the Bible. I typically use the NASB, so I believe that God loved us in that while we were still sinners (unregenerate rebellious sinners who disobey him) Christ died for us.

If "Original Sin" is correct...Than your child suffered from it, and God hated him or her and their sin and wanted nothing to do with them.There's no passage which states God has a plan of "forgiveness" for your hated, despised, stinking, vile, sinful, odious, horrid, child. Everything about that child makes God want to vomit and makes him seeth with hatred against it.

Let me guess, your second major was melodrama .

Once again I will ignore that you are exploiting (or trying to) the death of my child to make an irrelevant and erroneous point.

So, it's TWO THINGS???It's:1.) That we have a "human nature" So does your unborn babe So did Christand.....2.) That we Sin That's Biblical.....

Yes, that is biblical. That’s why I said it. I say biblical things.

Your child is safe Jon...So is mine...

Yes. I know.

 

[Agent47]

You need to stop accusing people of lying. It is a very unattractive habit in you (one of several).
What I have posted is what I believe. Do you believe that mankind does not live under the effects of the curse?

You need to quit trolling me calling me a troll which is an unattractive habit. But even if you don't, I'm immune to such. Comes with maturity

 

[rsr]

This thread has gone beyond the point of being edifying. It is therefore closed. Please keep food fights to the cafeteria.