Insincere gospel offer Part 2

[George Antonios]

My question for you is, why the Creation in the first place? If there were no Fall, and mankind filled the earth, then what?

Hence the planets.

Deu 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Paralleled in language by:

Jos 18:10 And Joshua cast lots for them in Shiloh before the LORD: and there Joshua divided the land unto the children of Israel according to their divisions.

God created the planets/worlds for mankind (not the church) to populate:

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

[Van]

On and on, Calvinists deny their doctrine makes the offer of salvation insincere. They believe the lost suffer from "total spiritual inability" thus unable to understand the gospel, and due to their corruption due to the Fall, the lost are enemies of God and therefore would never actually seek Him.

No need to mention Matthew 23:13 where lost people are in the process of entering the kingdom, thus demonstrating some spiritual ability not brought about by "irresistible grace" because they were prevented from going in!

 

[Aaron]

Hence the planets.

Deu 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Paralleled in language by:

Jos 18:10 And Joshua cast lots for them in Shiloh before the LORD: and there Joshua divided the land unto the children of Israel according to their divisions.

God created the planets/worlds for mankind (not the church) to populate:

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

This is insanity, and is an absolute denial of the revelation in Genesis, but more than that, and worse, it is an assertion that it was never God's will that Christ be highly exalted, seated at His Right Hand and given a Name above all names. That it was not God's original will that Jesus have the position and Title that He merited by being found in fashion as a man and being made obedient even to the death of the Cross.

You might want to rethink that.

 

[Aaron]

The why doth he yet find fault? question is that of a Jew claiming that the hardening of Israel is unjust since Israel followed after the law of righteousness, whereas Gentiles which followed not after righteousness obtain it. That's the context.
It's not the question of man pointing out that Calvinism paints God out to be an unjust omnipotent fiend.

God only hardened Pharaoh after Pharaoh twice rejected God's word before God hardened him.
God foreknew the future, of course, but Pharaoh of his own will first rejected God.

This is the first actual hardening:
Exo 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

And it occurs after:
Exo 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
Exo 7:12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

And after:
Exo 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

Your answer is that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, despite what was written by Moses and by Paul.

Sort of renders Paul's argument a strawman, and his understanding vain.

 

[Iconoclast]

You're the one suggesting that by Calvinism.
We don't believe God condemns people for not believing when he makes them unable to believe.

George..no need to blame God for mans sin.
You know the promise and prohibition given to Adam
Adam rebelled.
The consequences were as warned about.
God did not make man....unable to believe.Gen 1:31 eccl7:29...
Sin does that.

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you understand my reasoning

There is no if.

 

[George Antonios]

This is insanity, and is an absolute denial of the revelation in Genesis, but more than that, and worse, it is an assertion that it was never God's will that Christ be highly exalted, seated at His Right Hand and given a Name above all names. That it was not God's original will that Jesus have the position and Title that He merited by being found in fashion as a man and being made obedient even to the death of the Cross.

You might want to rethink that.

You asked, and got the scriptural answer brother. Is it meaty? Yes. Moving on.

 

[George Antonios]

Adam rebelled.

As was predestinated of God. Come on bro'. You know Calvinism. Be consistent.

 

[George Antonios]

God did not make man....unable to believe.Gen 1:31 eccl7:29...
Sin does that.

It was God who in his sovereignty set the parameters of the effects of the fall.

 

[George Antonios]

Your answer is that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, despite what was written by Moses and by Paul.

Sort of renders Paul's argument a strawman, and his understanding vain.

You asked and got the scriptural answer brother.
Paul simply showed that God can choose to harden folks, and applied that to Israel.
Moving on.

 

[Aaron]

You asked, and got the scriptural answer brother. Is it meaty? Yes. Moving on.

Meaty like the Book of Mormon, you mean. And don't call me brother.

 

[Aaron]

You asked and got the scriptural answer brother.
Paul simply showed that God can choose to harden folks, and applied that to Israel.
Moving on.

Moving away, you mean. Away from orthodoxy to the destructive realm of wresting the Scriptures.

 

[canadyjd]

It's just a cheaper cut of the Why-doth-He-yet-find-fault beef.

In the same vein, was God's command to Pharaoh insincere, since it was given to one He had hardened? Were the plagues unjust, because they were punishment for that hardening?

You are hitting home runs. I’ll answer my own question.

The offer of salvation in both cases is sincere. In the same way the offer of salvation through general revelation is sincere and everyone rejected it. The same way the offer of salvation through keeping the OT law was sincere, but it saved no one.

The offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is sincere even though God knows not a single person will accept it unless He intervenes in that person’s life and brings them to faith by Holy Spirit.

For those who oppose the reformed position and claim the offer is insincere, they cannot answer in any credible way how their position differs from the reformed position concerning the “sincere” offer.

In their view, God knows who will reject, but commands we proclaim the gospel anyway. Such a person is unable to respond in any way other than what God has foreseen.

If you consider the reformed offer to be insincere, you must stake the same claim to your own beliefs.

peace to you

 

[Aaron]

Wow. Lest our cultic friend actually persuades some of you to think that God intended to colonize other worlds with innocents frolicking forever naked in gardens of paradise, that His Son's exaltation and reign was a mere a secondary objective of Plan B from Outer Space...

Let me be straightforward with the answer to my own question...

Why creation? For the Son. Colossians 1:16 .

But who is the Son? The identity of Christ in the Heaven of Heavens, His Name and His Rank (the same yesterday, today, and forever) is one with and inextricable from His work on earth. The work of Redemption.

In short; why Creation? The Cross.

Let me be clear. It is not as if He could do a different work, and obtain His Title. Any other work would be a lesser work, and there is no greater work for the Son of God than that for which He is eternally known, and by which He established and merited His almighty power and authority, and by which He can present sons of God, partakers of the Divine Nature.

I have to say that, because invariably, one will postulate that there was some other work besides Redemption for He could be seated at the Right Hand of the Father and given a Name above all others. But there was not.

The Cross was always and forever the will of the Father, and the reason for Creation.

 

[Aaron]

You are hitting home runs. I’ll answer my own question.

The offer of salvation in both cases is sincere. In the same way the offer of salvation through general revelation is sincere and everyone rejected it. The same way the offer of salvation through keeping the OT law was sincere, but it saved no one.

The offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is sincere even though God knows not a single person will accept it unless He intervenes in that person’s life and brings them to faith by Holy Spirit.

For those who oppose the reformed position and claim the offer is insincere, they cannot answer in any credible way how their position differs from the reformed position concerning the “sincere” offer.

In their view, God knows who will reject, but commands we proclaim the gospel anyway. Such a person is unable to respond in any way other than what God has foreseen.

If you consider the reformed offer to be insincere, you must stake the same claim to your own beliefs.

peace to you

There will still be some who will say that God always knew it was possible, but wasn't for certain man would fall.

 

[Strannik]

Exactly. That's exactly the Calvinist position, although some Calvinists, here and there, especially high Calvinists, will kind of say it while also stating that somehow God remains sinless.

1) I didn't really watch the video, because I don't know English, and the subtitles are translated as something indistinct.

2) What makes you think that Christians have perceived only the carnal image of Christ, if just in the First Epistle to the Corinthians it is clearly stated that the image of Christ in Christians is not just the physical similarity of people, but that it is spiritual?

 

[Strannik]

[QUOTE = "Джордж Антониос, сообщение: 2685421, участник: 15115"] Почему он до сих пор придирается ? вопрос в том, что еврей утверждает, что ожесточение Израиля несправедливо, поскольку Израиль следовал закону праведности, в то время как язычники, которые следовали не после праведности, получали его. Это контекст.
Это не вопрос человека, указывающего на то, что кальвинизм изображает Бога несправедливым всемогущим злодеем.

Бог ожесточил фараона только после того, как фараон дважды отверг слово Бога, прежде чем Бог ожесточил его.
Бог, конечно, предвидел будущее, но фараон сначала по собственной воле отверг Бога.

Это первое собственное затвердевание:
Exo 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

And it occurs after:
Exo 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
Exo 7:12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

And after:
Exo 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go. [/QUOTE]
So you're not a Calvinist, are you?

 

[Aaron]

Now about other worlds: We're told very plainly the purpose of the heavenly bodies. Their purpose is To give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:17 . Yes, even the light of those bodies which are not the sources of their own light, like the planets, which are included in the term 'stars.' The moon is not the source of its own light, but it is called a light none the less.

And yet, somebody got out of that, their purpose was to take the overflow of naked gardeners.

 

[Strannik]

Explain why Jesus said this to His disciples.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. KJV

Then explain why the Holy Spirit led these disciples to not preach to certain areas but yet come to Macedonia instead?

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them. KJV

Now you may doubt the application of His words but until you explain these two references , your discussion will always be at an impasse.

Do you want to be exposed to the PERSONAL intentions of a REASONABLE Person? We can only speculate.
1) Someone was already a Christian there and worked quite well.
2) Remembering that Paul himself was a native of Asia Minor or simply Asia at that time, it is likely that the Holy Spirit simply saved Paul himself from unnecessary persecution and / or attempts.

About the fact that God simply wished death to those about whom He also said that it was necessary to preach for them, so that everyone would hear and believe... It's kind of weird, don't you think?

 

[Strannik]

Friends from America, how much time do you have now? You're supposed to be sleeping, aren't you?")))