Given that context, everyone in Moses' camp was saved regardless of whether they looked upon the serpent on the staff or not.
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Intentional perversion of Christ's Words
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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convicted1
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Drag, no, compel, yes. One can stop from being compelled or dragged, BTW.
If they have been regenerated they have already heard his voice and believed. There is no Scripture that states the natural man cannot hear, none. That is eisegesis. The natural man cannot understand the deeper things of God. That is it.
If God crushed our stony hearts...how can we possibly sin? You have taken a non literal hyperbolic statement given to a nation and applied it to where it was never intended.
In no place does it state we are born goats either.
The comparison Christ gave was to the snake on Moses' staff. Those that looked upon it were spared. They weren't dragged to the pole and forcibly made to look at it. If drawn = saved as it has been implied, everyone was saved whether they looked at the pole or not.How so?????????? extra "?" to fill the post requirements...
Could you provide a single text of Scripture where this Greek word is found where the context demonstrates and demands it merely refers to influence that is non-effectual, that does not result in the object actually coming.
convicted1
Guest
Remember, not all of Israel is Israel. The remnant was of the seed of promise.
Where is this Greek term used in regard to the brazen pole?
More attack dog calvinism I see
convicted1
Guest
Brother, in all fairness, this is coming from both sides.......
Did you notice what part of the forum these threads are found? Wake up and smell the roses instead of posting such absolute nonsensical statements. If the water is too hot get out. If this part of the forum does not suit you there are other parts, go find them. This is a debate forum in regard to Calvinism and Arminianism and so yes, the attack dog is always out, and will remain out as long as this aspect of the forum is here and as long as it is a debate between Calvinism and Arminianism.
When forum posters follow the tactics like Bob or the RJP method consistently, ignore evidence posted in OP's consistently, then either you call a spade or spade or just give in to that kind of dishonest approach and distraction. If we going to debate, at least deal with the contents of a post rather than continually Running from it, jumping to other texts or subjects and pitting scripture against scripture. Everyone now has left the OP and are trying to distract, detour and deny the subject discussed.
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Yea I see some attitudes in response to ridiculous things like the op that essentially says if you are not a calvinist then you are lost.
You don't have to be lost to be hardened against certain truths of scripture. All you have to be is dishonest with the evidence, hate that aspect of truth and play the RJP game and do it intentionally and repetively.
No idea what you are asking.
So if one doesnt agree with your conclusions they are dishonest and hate truth? Wow.
How is that relevant to the story of the pole?
John 6:37-65 is so clearly worded and deals so directly with the very issues that it is impossible to make it deny what it clearly and explicitly teaches.
1. Eternal security is clearly and explicitly taught- Jn. 6:37-40
2. Eternal election is clearly and necessarily inferred - Jn. 6:37-39
3. Repudiation that all men without exception are drawn to Christ is clearly and explicitly stated - Jn. 6:64-65
One may twist and turn these words any way they please but the context is so worded that it will expose and condemn such twisting and turning and that is why I stay with this context.
Many scriptures do not have the contextual clarity and preciseness to prove a given doctrine and so are not iron clad proof texts. However, this context has the contextual clarity and preciseness to completely destroy any false interpretation place upon it IF the contextual facts are considered OBJECTIVELY and HONESTLY as all false interpretations are easily exposed. So the real issue is HONESTY and OBJECTIVITY and that is what is missing in our Arminian opponents when dealing with contextual facts and that is precisely why they ALWAYS employ the RJP routine in regard to this portion of scripture- ALWAYS - as they have no other alternative, no other way of escape.
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convicted1
Guest
Not everyone in Israel at the time of the serpent on the pole made up Israel. Israel is a shadow, a type, of the church to come, which is established upon Christ, of which, He is her foundation, and she is His body. So if every single person in Israel at the time of the seprent on the pole made up the true Israel, then everyone would have been saved. There has always been a remnant of Israel that made up the true Israel, and they were the picture of the church established by God through Christ's works on the cross.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The supernatural power of God to DRAW ALL is seen again in Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and KNOCK - if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in". Rev. 3:20
"Behold I STAND at the door and KNOCK" is not "fallen man left to his natural state". The context is the act of God in seeking out the lost and then getting their attention.
But the lost have a choice to make. They can choose to hear AND to open the door - or they can choose to ignore Christ.
"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1
The sense of the Rev 3 text is not "whoever I arbitrarily select out and cause to hear and cause to open the door - so just wait for Me and see if I might happen to select you".
All the work of God is complete in reaching the lost - He is at their very door - there is no "but they cannot hear Me" and there is no "But they cannot open the door" in the text.
The whole sense of the text has to be "set on its head" for Calvinism to even begin to work there.
There is no "Whoever I first regenerate - will hear and I will cause them to open the door" in the text - rather this is the eisegete needed in Calvinism where the text is "lacking" the Calvinist spin.
in Christ,
Bob
"Behold I STAND at the door and KNOCK" is not "fallen man left to his natural state". The context is the act of God in seeking out the lost and then getting their attention.
But the lost have a choice to make. They can choose to hear AND to open the door - or they can choose to ignore Christ.
"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1
The sense of the Rev 3 text is not "whoever I arbitrarily select out and cause to hear and cause to open the door - so just wait for Me and see if I might happen to select you".
All the work of God is complete in reaching the lost - He is at their very door - there is no "but they cannot hear Me" and there is no "But they cannot open the door" in the text.
The whole sense of the text has to be "set on its head" for Calvinism to even begin to work there.
There is no "Whoever I first regenerate - will hear and I will cause them to open the door" in the text - rather this is the eisegete needed in Calvinism where the text is "lacking" the Calvinist spin.
in Christ,
Bob
The story was written in Hebrew
The reference is in Greek - Jn. 3:14-15 and your application is to the Greek scriptures. Again, it is a GREEK term. Again, where in the Greek Septuigent or Greek New Testament can you support your conclusion?
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