Intinction

[AustinC]

Wesley, I think most Christians would say they believe salvation is through grace, correct? The Church teaches that these graces are conveyed or imparted to us through the sacraments... Baptism, Communion, Reconciliation, etc all pour out graces needed for salvation.

The huge problem is that the works of the RC sacraments remove grace entirely from the equation.
Salvation becomes this process:
Humans perform a sacrament, which is the cause agent that moves God to save them. Humans commit sins, which causes God to reject them. Humans perform a sacrament, which causes God to save them. Humans commit sins, which causes God to reject them. Humans...
That's the circular world of works salvation apart from God's grace. Grace does not have any functional purpose in such a circular pattern. Moreso, the teaching that the sacraments save is anathema to the gospel at every step.
Thus, the traditions of the RCC and OC must be thrown out whenever salvation by works is introduced in their teachings.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Wesley, I think most Christians would say they believe salvation is through grace, correct? The Church teaches that these graces are conveyed or imparted to us through the sacraments... Baptism, Communion, Reconciliation, etc all pour out graces needed for salvation.

... and if you don’t touch all these bases? Thankfully there is the ‘Act Of Contrition’ prayer you can say... but if you sin right after or don’t say it sincerely there is no guarantee.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Yes... the full seven sacraments.... Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance,
Anointing of the Sick,
, Marriage & Holy Orders—- last one was for the Priest and Nun (in my day)

My understanding is that the one and only requirement for a lost sinner to be saved, become a child of God, and a good Catholic, is to be baptized with holy (wholly) water.

If my understanding is incorrect, please correct me.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Wesley, I think most Christians would say they believe salvation is through grace, correct? The Church teaches that these graces are conveyed or imparted to us through the sacraments... Baptism, Communion, Reconciliation, etc all pour out graces needed for salvation.

I cannot speak for most professing Christians. I believe Christ died for His chosen elect.

Jhn 15:19 KJV - If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Eph 1:4 KJV - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1Pe 2:9 KJV - But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The RCC that graces(?) are imparted through the sacraments. I do not believe works earn grace. He called me out of darkness into His marvelous light!

Any grace needed for salvation is grace originating with God. I brought nothing worthy of my salvation to Him.

What I am trying to get clarified is/are the requirement/requirements of the RCC for a lost sinner to become a child of God.
So far, the responses to my inquiry has been conflicted confusing.

 

[robycop3]

Apparently, this is a hard teaching... that you can't accept?

50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

But, during the passover meal, Jesus drank from a cup & passed the liquid around( Be it wine, grape juice, or Gatorade, I dulnno; it's not important) & called it His blood. He broke a loaf of bread apart in His hands & passed it around for His disciples to eat, calling it His flesh. Now, obviously, He was before them, in one piece & not bleeding, so, just-as-obviously it wasn't His literal flesh & blood they were consuming. And He said, "Do this isn remembrance of Me."

At no time did Jesus say, "This'll save ya." He said to do that IN REMEMBRANCE of Him, after He was gone. That's why that ceremony was passed on to us, that we might more-fully remember that jesus died for OUR sins & that he gave His literal body as a sacrifice for the penalty of our sins.

That's ALL the Communion is. It does NOT save anyone. It is to remember Jesus' supreme sacrifice of Himself for OUR sins.

 

[robycop3]

What an absolutely foolish retort. You are dissing the Holy Spirit here, so I would be careful if I were you. Without his blood shed on Calvary there would be no Holy Communion and that is what we who follow orthodox Christian teachings believe.

But Jesus' ONLY command regarding Communion was, "Do this IN REMEMBRANCE of Me." He did NOT say it was for salvation, forgiveness of sins, or anything but for remembrance of Him.

"Intinction" is just some jive invented by an early RC. Pope Julius 1 wrote against it in the 4th century, even explaining, as Scripture says, that Jesus passed around the drink & the bread separately. But the practice continued in administering Communion to the sick, & after the 7th C. found its way back into regular RC practice.

Point is, it's phony.

 

[Adonia]

But Jesus' ONLY command regarding Communion was, "Do this IN REMEMBRANCE of Me." He did NOT say it was for salvation, forgiveness of sins, or anything but for remembrance of Him.

"Intinction" is just some jive invented by an early RC. Pope Julius 1 wrote against it in the 4th century, even explaining, as Scripture says, that Jesus passed around the drink & the bread separately. But the practice continued in administering Communion to the sick, & after the 7th C. found its way back into regular RC practice.

Point is, it's phony.

Your interpretation is phony. I will repeat. No blood shed on Calvary, no Holy Communion. One cannot occur without the other.

 

[Adonia]

No I do not.

I see, so you were born in a vacuum. The first time you read the Bible the belief's you perceived were exactly like that of your head honcho John Smythe. You talked to no other Baptist, you received no instruction from a Pastor somewhere. Yeah, right.

 

[Adonia]

Wesley, I think most Christians would say they believe salvation is through grace, correct? The Church teaches that these graces are conveyed or imparted to us through the sacraments... Baptism, Communion, Reconciliation, etc all pour out graces needed for salvation.

That is correct. Grace is inherent in the sacraments, they flow from them, they are freely given through them. Truth be told, our friends believe in them, they just don't use that word and have slightly different descriptions of some of them.

 

[Adonia]

With due respect, it matters not what "I" consider. What does the Roman Catholic Church doctrine require for salvation of a lost sinner? If the lost sinner partakes of the Eucharist, does that act redeem them or does the RCC have additional or different requirements for the lost sinner to be born-again?

First it is having faith that Jesus died for us, then abiding by the sacraments as a template to live holy lives.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

First it is having faith that Jesus died for us, then abiding by the sacraments as a template to live holy lives.

What are the consequences not abiding by the sacraments as a template to live holy lives? Do you or anyone you know live a holy life?

 

[Oseas3]

Nothing? The Holy Mass brings present his great sacrifice and you say it is nothing before the Lord? Your ignorance is far worse than I could ever have imagined anyone's to be.

Friend, the ceremony you are saying that is Holy has nothing to do with Holy or holiness, absolutely, I am astonished you are ignoring that that celebration is a satanic sorcery. Satan says that the idols made by his religious followers are saints, the Bible says Satan deceives the whole world, understand? Why? It because the religions were invented and developed by him, Satan, as you can see in the Holy Mass celebrated by demons, Ministers of Satan, yeah, ministers of Satan, as is written in 2Corinthians chapter 11: verses 13 to 15.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I see, so you were born in a vacuum. The first time you read the Bible the belief's you perceived were exactly like that of your head honcho John Smythe. You talked to no other Baptist, you received no instruction from a Pastor somewhere. Yeah, right.

That’s correct... I’m a Radical Christian.

 

[AustinC]

Your interpretation is phony. I will repeat. No blood shed on Calvary, no Holy Communion. One cannot occur without the other.

So...the first communion was therefore... phony. Jesus supper, where he instituted the remembrance was just a training session for the actual reality of real flesh and real blood which comes after the cross. Is this accurate?

 

[Walter]

Friend, the ceremony you are saying that is Holy has nothing to do with Holy or holiness, absolutely, I am astonished you are ignoring that that celebration is a satanic sorcery. Satan says that the idols made by his religious followers are saints, the Bible says Satan deceives the whole world, understand? Why? It because the religions were invented and developed by him, Satan, as you can see in the Holy Mass celebrated by demons, Ministers of Satan, yeah, ministers of Satan, as is written in 2Corinthians chapter 11: verses 13 to 15.

Your post is pure rubbish

 

[AustinC]

That is correct. Grace is inherent in the sacraments, they flow from them, they are freely given through them. Truth be told, our friends believe in them, they just don't use that word and have slightly different descriptions of some of them.

But...you have to perform the sacraments, which means they are works...not grace. When I pay someone for the work they have done, I am not being gracious. I am completing a contract for the work done. When you complete the ceremony of the sacrament, you are claiming to receive salvation from that work, which means God is paying you for fulfilling the contract which you fulfilled. No grace happens in that transaction. It's all a legal transaction.

 

[Oseas3]

Your post is pure rubbish

Friend, you are being exceedingly evasive, do you lost speech, or ran out of words to argue against a sharp Sword used to free the souls from Satan's snares? Are you a follower of Satan's ministers? Did not you understand or discern the warns of Paul the Apostle? Paul said:
I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of demons; ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

 

[Jerome]

A conservative Southern Baptist whose church practices intinction:

We practice communion weekly...intinction...we offer a choice of wine or juice, as one's conscience allows...they tear off a piece of the bread and dip it into the cup

 

[Adonia]

But...you have to perform the sacraments, which means they are works...not grace. When I pay someone for the work they have done, I am not being gracious. I am completing a contract for the work done. When you complete the ceremony of the sacrament, you are claiming to receive salvation from that work, which means God is paying you for fulfilling the contract which you fulfilled. No grace happens in that transaction. It's all a legal transaction.

Are you not a baptized Christian? If so then you are also guilty of a "work". Are "works" inherently bad for some reason? I do not understand your line of reasoning.

We don't "perform" anything, we do those things because they are what is required of the Christian.

 

[Adonia]

So...the first communion was therefore... phony. Jesus supper, where he instituted the remembrance was just a training session for the actual reality of real flesh and real blood which comes after the cross. Is this accurate?

You are being ridiculous here. As usual your interpretation of such things remains widely inaccurate.