Introducing Christian Doctrine by Millard Erickson (Part 2)

[reformedbeliever]

I'll start off and begin with Miracles.

Dictionary.com states Miracle means:
1. an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

However, I think we as christians use the term to loosely and far to often. Let me explain:
Let's say a person was a reletively new hiker, was hiking in the mountains and at some point much later in hike slipped and broke their ankle. Another person who was also hiking heard them cry out and come to their aide, and called for help on their radio. Now being that it is late fall, the weather can get pretty bad/cold in the mountains at night. So someone would state that it was a 'miracle' that another person was hiking close by in that area.

The above is set forth to illistrate what I mean about using the term to loosely. What is actaully descibed above is not a 'miracle' but Gods providence. What would have make it a miracle is if that other person would have 'healed' the broken ankle right then and there.

Providence is:
1. (often initial capital letter) the foreseeing care and guidance of God or nature over the creatures of the earth.
2. (initial capital letter) God, esp. when conceived as omnisciently directing the universe and the affairs of humankind with wise benevolence.
3. Care or preparation in advance

Providence is not a miracle, though it is a miraculous thing to know and realize that God is in control even in the most out of control situations.

Though God can use miracles within His providence, miracles are not the same things as Gods providence.

SECONDLY:
Why does God use Miracles?

The primary purpose is as a sign of authentication and valadation that 1) the person who performs the miracle is a servant of the True God, 2) that it IS God who has done these things (2b) and to establish the absoluteness of God's power to those He chooses to reveal it, 3) to declare His majesty, power, and Glory that His creation will both praise and worship Him.

THIRDLY:
How are miracles performed?

However He chooses to work them (ex same miracle different application - Jesus healing the blind), and through whom He chooses. The 'whom' however, is always a believer but the miracle performed is not always on a believer.
Sometimes God miraculously heals a person who was not even seeking it. Take the lame man that called out to Peter and John for money (Acts 3) but nothing to do with healing nor do we have any indication he thought they COULD heal him. Yet Peter states I have neither silver or gold but such as I have to give, stand up and walk.
Yet at other times, like with Jesus, He states 'thy faith has made the whole' or 'thy faith has healed thee'.

The miracle performed is never performed by the power of the person but God working through that person. Peter healed the lame man in Acts 3 because he was walking in the Spirit and was led to heal the man God intended to heal. We can infer this partly because there was garenteed to be more lame and sick there that just the one but only the one was healed. Another reason is because though they had the gift of healing they did not always heal everyone around them like Jesus did. Take Paul for example. He had the gift of healing but he still did not heal some of even his own team who became sick on his missonary journeys (2 Tim 4:20, Phil 2:26-27)

FOURTH:
Do you see miracles all around you?

No, I see God's amazingness and work all around me (providence) but not miricles.
Though I have seen miracles and in fact have had them happen TO me.

FIFTH:
Are miacles rare?

Define rare? Do you mean around me specifically? I would say yes. Do you mean globally? I would say most likely not.

I completely agree with you Allan. Well stated.
The only thing I would emphasize is the fact that those who were healed, were those whom God determined would be. As Allan pointed out, there were many standing there that were not healed. Many who were healed were not seeking it. It was a sovereign act of God.
IMHO, it is the same with regeneration. God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, performes this miracle according to His sovereign will. See, we can get some Calvinism out of miracles can't we? :godisgood:

 

[tinytim]

I completely agree with you Allan. Well stated.
The only thing I would emphasize is the fact that those who were healed, were those whom God determined would be. As Allan pointed out, there were many standing there that were not healed. Many who were healed were not seeking it. It was a sovereign act of God.
IMHO, it is the same with regeneration. God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, performes this miracle according to His sovereign will. See, we can get some Calvinism out of miracles can't we? :godisgood:

OH Brother!!! :smilewinkgrin:


That was something I figured would crop up out of the question "Why do miracles happen" I mean afterall, Since God is sovereign, why not control the circumstances so that a miracle is not even needed?

I like to think that miracles are happening everyday around me.. but then again Allan may be right, and what I was calling miracles was actually God's providence.

 

[reformedbeliever]

OH Brother!!! :smilewinkgrin:


That was something I figured would crop up out of the question "Why do miracles happen" I mean afterall, Since God is sovereign, why not control the circumstances so that a miracle is not even needed?

I like to think that miracles are happening everyday around me.. but then again Allan may be right, and what I was calling miracles was actually God's providence.

The answer to this question I bolded will be answered in reverse. God did control the circumstances to where a miracle WAS needed in the case of a blind man. Remember when the people around asked whose sin caused the man to be blind. Jesus told them this this was not due to any sin, but so that God could get glory out of his being healed. That sounds like a miracle and providence doesn't it?

 

[tinytim]

And don't forget raising up Lazarus... It was to glorify God...

 

[TCGreek]

In his Christian Theologh, 2nd ed. (CTse), Erickson lists the three major views about miracles:

1. Miracles are actually the manifestations of little known or virtually unknown natural laws.

2. Miracles break the laws of nature.

3. Miracles are supernatural forces that counter nature forces. (pp. 432-33).

Erickson further lists three purposes of miracles:

1. The most important is to glorify God.

2. To establish the supernatural basis of revelation.

3. To meet human needs. (p. 434).

Erickson believes in miracles for today. This is what he says, "When miracles occur today, we should credit God." (p. 434)

Personally, I consider miracles as being first laws and our life of existence is based on second laws. With this view, miracles, when they occur, they are not antinatural but only supernatural interventions, because they are first laws.

Remember, God spoke this universe into existence--now that's first law.

 

[TCGreek]

And don't forget raising up Lazarus... It was to glorify God...

I love this verse: "This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it" (John 11:4, NASB).

 

[Allan]

In his Christian Theologh, 2nd ed. (CTse), Erickson lists the three major views about miracles:

1. Miracles are actually the manifestations of little known or virtually unknown natural laws.

2. Miracles break the laws of nature.

3. Miracles are supernatural forces that counter nature forces. (pp. 432-33).

Erickson further lists three purposes of miracles:

1. The most important is to glorify God.

2. To establish the supernatural basis of revelation.

3. To meet human needs. (p. 434).

Erickson believes in miracles for today. This is what he says, "When miracles occur today, we should credit God." (p. 434)

First I agree with your first section and secondly I also agree with the order presented in second section. (imagine that ) I didn't set any specific order forth in my post because I was just getting my thoughts down since I was at work and didn't have any of my materials with me. Good post.

Here is another perspective, though the same as what has already been set forth and agreed upon in this thread it has a small distinction. The distinction is that of 'wonder' (ex. It's a miracle!) This is J.I. Packers "Concise Theology: A guide to Historic Christian beliefs", subsection "God as revealed as Creator":

MIRACLES

GOD SHOWS HIS PRESENCE AND POWER

The LORD heard Elijah’s cry, and the boy’s life returned to him, and he lived.

1 KINGS 17:22

Scripture has no single word for miracle. The concept is a blend of the thoughts expressed by three terms: wonder, mighty work, and sign.

Wonder is the primary notion. (Miracle, from the Latin miraculum, means something that evokes wonder.) A miracle is an observed event that triggers awareness of God’s presence and power. Striking providences and coincidences, and awesome events such as childbirth, no less than works of new creative power, are properly called miracles since they communicate this awareness. In this sense, at least, there are miracles today.

Mighty work (work of power) focuses on the impression that miracles make, and points to the presence in Bible history of supernatural acts of God involving the power that created the world from nothing. Thus, the raising of the dead to life, which Jesus did three times, not counting his own resurrection (Luke 7:11-17; 8:49-56; John 11:38-44), and Elijah, Elisha, Peter, and Paul did once each (1 Kings 17:17-24; 2 Kings 4:18-37; Acts 9:36-41; 20:9-12), is a work of this creative power; it cannot be explained in terms of coincidence or of nature taking its course. The same is true of organic healings, of which the Gospels recount many; they too exhibit supernatural re-creating and restoring.

Sign as a label for miracles (the label regularly used in John’s Gospel, where seven key miracles are recorded) means that they signify something; in other words, they carry a message. The miracles in Scripture are nearly all clustered in the time of the Exodus, of Elijah and Elisha, and of Christ and his apostles. First of all, they authenticate the miracle workers themselves as God’s representatives and messengers (cf. Exod. 4:1-9; 1 Kings 17:24; John 10:38; 14:11; 2 Cor. 12:12; Heb. 2:3-4); and they also show forth something of God’s power in salvation and judgment. Such is their significance.

Belief in the miraculous is integral to Christianity. Theologians who discard all miracles, thus obliging themselves to deny Jesus’ incarnation and resurrection, the two supreme miracles of Scripture, should not claim to be Christians: the claim is not valid. The rejection of miracles by yesterday’s scientists sprang not from science but from the dogma of a universe of absolute uniformity that scientists brought to their scientific work. There is nothing irrational about believing that God who made the world can still intrude creatively into it. Christians should recognize that it is not faith in the biblical miracles, and in God’s ability to work miracles today should he so wish, but doubt about these things, that is unreasonable

Personally, I consider miracles as being first laws and our life of existence is based on second laws. With this view, miracles, when they occur, they are not antinatural but only supernatural interventions, because they are first laws.

Remember, God spoke this universe into existence--now that's first law.

I think I am following what you are saying here, but I'm also not so sure I am. Please elaborate a little if you wouldn't mind.

 

[TCGreek]

This is a good quote from Packer:

Christians should recognize that it is not faith in the biblical miracles, and in God’s ability to work miracles today should he so wish, but doubt about these things, that is unreasonable.

Allan,
1. It's good when we can agree every now and then. :thumbs:

2. Packer is correct. A failure to believe in biblical miracles and more so the the ability of God is unreasonable.

I think I am following what you are saying here, but I'm also not so sure I am. Please elaborate a little if you wouldn't mind.

3. It is from the first laws that everything else came into being. The first laws are still there at God's disposal, so when He sees fit, He can so discharge.

4. Consider the raising of the dead: first law gave life, and so when death occurs, if God so desires, He can return that life to the individual.

 

[skypair]

I apologize beforehand for rb's attack on me on this thread. As a practical demonstration of the topic, I would consider a miracle to have happened right before our eyes if he could see his error so I will reply.

Why do you say we never hear the contraversial side?

1) I said "maybe." 2) I did not assume that you represented "most Calvinists."

No sir you are not well versed in reformed apologetics.

The "qualifications" being what? That I fell into the "trap" and got out as you seem to think you did with free will? I can guarantee that you did NOT follow the Spirit out of free will. Calvinism "walks" people right past the Altar of justification into the holy place to, like tourists, see the "pretty" lamps and shewbread and incense of sanctification. Oh, they believe in the Sacrifice, alright -- they just didn't "bring it" in repentance BEFORE they began looking at and using the instruments of sanctification.

Don't you know that most of us came from your free will background?

Sad, isn't it. :tear: Somehow you joined an even more "elite" group in the church that has it all figured out "systematically." And somehow you lost the Foundation of your faith. It's JESUS, not election. You lost your clear perspective of God's love. The simple meaning of John 3:16 is even perverted to you now -- "For God so loved the world..." No. God showed His love to all the world through the giving of His son so that a specific, particular people could receive eternal life through faith in Him. (This is your "brother" James White's latest interpretation. May God have mercy on his soul!)

The difference between you and the reformers is that they had the ability to use exegesis. They knew exactly what regeneration meant in the original languages.......... You should try it!

Yeah, that's exactly what White said he did with John 3:16, rb! And he promises he didn't bring any preconceptions into the interpretation either. He, and perhaps you, have been COMPLETELY deluded, friend.

skypair

 

[tinytim]

I apologize beforehand for rb's attack on me on this thread. As a practical demonstration of the topic, I would consider a miracle to have happened right before our eyes if he could see his error so I will reply.

1) I said "maybe." 2) I did not assume that you represented "most Calvinists."

The "qualifications" being what? That I fell into the "trap" and got out as you seem to think you did with free will? I can guarantee that you did NOT follow the Spirit out of free will. Calvinism "walks" people right past the Altar of justification into the holy place to, like tourists, see the "pretty" lamps and shewbread and incense of sanctification. Oh, they believe in the Sacrifice, alright -- they just didn't "bring it" in repentance BEFORE they began looking at and using the instruments of sanctification.

Sad, isn't it. :tear: Somehow you joined an even more "elite" group in the church that has it all figured out "systematically." And somehow you lost the Foundation of your faith. It's JESUS, not election. You lost your clear perspective of God's love. The simple meaning of John 3:16 is even perverted to you now -- "For God so loved the world..." No. God showed His love to all the world through the giving of His son so that a specific, particular people could receive eternal life through faith in Him. (This is your "brother" James White's latest interpretation. May God have mercy on his soul!)

Yeah, that's exactly what White said he did with John 3:16, rb! And he promises he didn't bring any preconceptions into the interpretation either. He, and perhaps you, have been COMPLETELY deluded, friend.

skypair

Oh never mind.. I will let the mods handle this one.
Please ignore skypair's inflamed comments here, and keep this thread on track.

 

[tinytim]

In his Christian Theologh, 2nd ed. (CTse), Erickson lists the three major views about miracles:

1. Miracles are actually the manifestations of little known or virtually unknown natural laws.

2. Miracles break the laws of nature.

3. Miracles are supernatural forces that counter nature forces. (pp. 432-33).

Erickson further lists three purposes of miracles:

1. The most important is to glorify God.

2. To establish the supernatural basis of revelation.

3. To meet human needs. (p. 434).

Erickson believes in miracles for today. This is what he says, "When miracles occur today, we should credit God." (p. 434)

Personally, I consider miracles as being first laws and our life of existence is based on second laws. With this view, miracles, when they occur, they are not antinatural but only supernatural interventions, because they are first laws.

Remember, God spoke this universe into existence--now that's first law.

I am inclined to agree with you TC. and would add:
True reality, is not what we see, but where God works...

 

[Allan]

I am inclined to agree with you TC. and would add:
True reality, is not what we see, but where God works...

Good point

 

[tinytim]

Thanks Allan, BTW, those are some cute kids in you avatar...
You didn't photoshop your family did you!!!:laugh: :laugh: :smilewinkgrin: :tonofbricks:

 

[reformedbeliever]

This is from a short paper I did on Theodicy a few years ago.

How can God, who is Almighty, allow evil to exist? This has been a question that has been asked for thousands of years. I think first we need to look at the definition of theodicy. The term theodicy comes from the Greek θεός (theós, "god") and δίκη (díkē, "justice"), meaning literally "the justice of God". The purpose of theodicy is to show that evil in the world does not conflict with the goodness of God, that, indeed, notwithstanding its many evils, the world is the best of all possible worlds. Many would deny that God exists because of the problem of evil. Some would say that if God exists, He must not be perfectly good.
The Bible says that God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omni benevolent. If God is all powerful and all knowing, and if He is perfectly good, how can He allow evil? Isaiah 45:7 says that; The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. Some translations like the King James version Bible says; I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
We have to ask ourselves if evil is actually evil. God says that He will cause all things to work together for the good for those who love Him, those who are called according to His purpose. If God causes all things to work together for the good of those who love Him, is evil really evil?
He can make evil work out for the good. Genesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, {but} God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
Deuteronomy 8:2-3
2 "You shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.
3 "He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.
Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.' "
With these and many more verses of Scripture we see that God does cause evil to work for the good of those He loves. We have to look past the immediate circumstance to see the final outcome.
God is almighty. When God made man, He was pleased to give man the ability to choose. In order for man to have a choice there had to be a possibility for evil. The possibility of evil had to exist for man to be able to be free moral agents. An example is this; God made all the material available for my truck to exist. God did not manufacture my truck. Men manufactured my truck. My truck exists because men took the material God provided, and manufactured my truck. Sin exists because men took the possibility of evil, and manufactured that which is against God’s nature.
We have to look at the two possibilities for evil. Evil can be in the form of calamity or in the form of sin. God creates calamity in His righteous judgment. God can not sin. It is always man who manufactures sin. As free moral agents we have the choice to do that which is against God’s nature or to conform to God’s nature. Unregenerate men will always do that which is against God’s nature.
We have to take into account whether what we perceive as evil is really evil. The Bible says that we will experience pain and difficulty in life after the fall. The Bible says that we are molded and perfected by our trials and tribulations. What men think is evil may actually be making us better as human beings. Just as plants need the wind and storms to become stronger, we need the storms in our lives to become stronger. God sometimes puts storms in our lives for our own protection. If we had all we ever needed and everything we always wanted, without any pain or trial, we would forget our need of God. I think that God in His infinite knowledge gives us everything we need, including what we perceive as evil, to bring us into the beings that He planned us to be. Just as Christ experienced pain and difficulty, we also being made into His image will experience pain and difficulty. It is through those difficult and painful experiences that we will begin to be make like Jesus. It is a privilege to experience what He experienced. Without evil, we would not know the goodness and perfect Holiness of God. God is going to use evil to bring us to Himself. For much of mankind, without evil, they would never turn to God. It is when we are in desperation and at the bottom of our own ability, we turn to God. Just as a child who seeks his father when the things of the world are too much for him to bear, we seek our Heavenly Father, when the things of this world are too much for us to handle on our own. Satan is one of God’s hardest working angels. What was meant for evil God turns into good. God is sovereign and perfectly good. The evil in the world is part of God’s design to make us into what He has already planned for us to be.

 

[Allan]

Thanks Allan, BTW, those are some cute kids in you avatar...
You didn't photoshop your family did you!!!:laugh: :laugh: :smilewinkgrin: :tonofbricks:

Nope, and there is still two more. This is the only pic I had at present on the comp.

This picture is about 3 years old.

 

[tinytim]

This is from a short paper I did on Theodicy a few years ago.

How can God, who is Almighty, allow evil to exist? This has been a question that has been asked for thousands of years. I think first we need to look at the definition of theodicy. The term theodicy comes from the Greek θεός (theós, "god") and δίκη (díkē, "justice"), meaning literally "the justice of God". The purpose of theodicy is to show that evil in the world does not conflict with the goodness of God, that, indeed, notwithstanding its many evils, the world is the best of all possible worlds. Many would deny that God exists because of the problem of evil. Some would say that if God exists, He must not be perfectly good.
The Bible says that God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omni benevolent. If God is all powerful and all knowing, and if He is perfectly good, how can He allow evil? Isaiah 45:7 says that; The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. Some translations like the King James version Bible says; I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
We have to ask ourselves if evil is actually evil. God says that He will cause all things to work together for the good for those who love Him, those who are called according to His purpose. If God causes all things to work together for the good of those who love Him, is evil really evil?
He can make evil work out for the good. Genesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, {but} God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
Deuteronomy 8:2-3
2 "You shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.
3 "He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.
Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.' "
With these and many more verses of Scripture we see that God does cause evil to work for the good of those He loves. We have to look past the immediate circumstance to see the final outcome.
God is almighty. When God made man, He was pleased to give man the ability to choose. In order for man to have a choice there had to be a possibility for evil. The possibility of evil had to exist for man to be able to be free moral agents. An example is this; God made all the material available for my truck to exist. God did not manufacture my truck. Men manufactured my truck. My truck exists because men took the material God provided, and manufactured my truck. Sin exists because men took the possibility of evil, and manufactured that which is against God’s nature.
We have to look at the two possibilities for evil. Evil can be in the form of calamity or in the form of sin. God creates calamity in His righteous judgment. God can not sin. It is always man who manufactures sin. As free moral agents we have the choice to do that which is against God’s nature or to conform to God’s nature. Unregenerate men will always do that which is against God’s nature.
We have to take into account whether what we perceive as evil is really evil. The Bible says that we will experience pain and difficulty in life after the fall. The Bible says that we are molded and perfected by our trials and tribulations. What men think is evil may actually be making us better as human beings. Just as plants need the wind and storms to become stronger, we need the storms in our lives to become stronger. God sometimes puts storms in our lives for our own protection. If we had all we ever needed and everything we always wanted, without any pain or trial, we would forget our need of God. I think that God in His infinite knowledge gives us everything we need, including what we perceive as evil, to bring us into the beings that He planned us to be. Just as Christ experienced pain and difficulty, we also being made into His image will experience pain and difficulty. It is through those difficult and painful experiences that we will begin to be make like Jesus. It is a privilege to experience what He experienced. Without evil, we would not know the goodness and perfect Holiness of God. God is going to use evil to bring us to Himself. For much of mankind, without evil, they would never turn to God. It is when we are in desperation and at the bottom of our own ability, we turn to God. Just as a child who seeks his father when the things of the world are too much for him to bear, we seek our Heavenly Father, when the things of this world are too much for us to handle on our own. Satan is one of God’s hardest working angels. What was meant for evil God turns into good. God is sovereign and perfectly good. The evil in the world is part of God’s design to make us into what He has already planned for us to be.

Can I email that to our class?
That is so much what we even discussed last night, and came to the same conclusions you did....

 

[TCGreek]

This is from a short paper I did on Theodicy a few years ago.

How can God, who is Almighty, allow evil to exist? This has been a question that has been asked for thousands of years. I think first we need to look at the definition of theodicy. The term theodicy comes from the Greek θεός (theós, "god") and δίκη (díkē, "justice"), meaning literally "the justice of God". The purpose of theodicy is to show that evil in the world does not conflict with the goodness of God, that, indeed, notwithstanding its many evils, the world is the best of all possible worlds. Many would deny that God exists because of the problem of evil. Some would say that if God exists, He must not be perfectly good.
The Bible says that God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omni benevolent. If God is all powerful and all knowing, and if He is perfectly good, how can He allow evil? Isaiah 45:7 says that; The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. Some translations like the King James version Bible says; I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
We have to ask ourselves if evil is actually evil. God says that He will cause all things to work together for the good for those who love Him, those who are called according to His purpose. If God causes all things to work together for the good of those who love Him, is evil really evil?
He can make evil work out for the good. Genesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, {but} God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
Deuteronomy 8:2-3
2 "You shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.
3 "He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.
Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.' "
With these and many more verses of Scripture we see that God does cause evil to work for the good of those He loves. We have to look past the immediate circumstance to see the final outcome.
God is almighty. When God made man, He was pleased to give man the ability to choose. In order for man to have a choice there had to be a possibility for evil. The possibility of evil had to exist for man to be able to be free moral agents. An example is this; God made all the material available for my truck to exist. God did not manufacture my truck. Men manufactured my truck. My truck exists because men took the material God provided, and manufactured my truck. Sin exists because men took the possibility of evil, and manufactured that which is against God’s nature.
We have to look at the two possibilities for evil. Evil can be in the form of calamity or in the form of sin. God creates calamity in His righteous judgment. God can not sin. It is always man who manufactures sin. As free moral agents we have the choice to do that which is against God’s nature or to conform to God’s nature. Unregenerate men will always do that which is against God’s nature.
We have to take into account whether what we perceive as evil is really evil. The Bible says that we will experience pain and difficulty in life after the fall. The Bible says that we are molded and perfected by our trials and tribulations. What men think is evil may actually be making us better as human beings. Just as plants need the wind and storms to become stronger, we need the storms in our lives to become stronger. God sometimes puts storms in our lives for our own protection. If we had all we ever needed and everything we always wanted, without any pain or trial, we would forget our need of God. I think that God in His infinite knowledge gives us everything we need, including what we perceive as evil, to bring us into the beings that He planned us to be. Just as Christ experienced pain and difficulty, we also being made into His image will experience pain and difficulty. It is through those difficult and painful experiences that we will begin to be make like Jesus. It is a privilege to experience what He experienced. Without evil, we would not know the goodness and perfect Holiness of God. God is going to use evil to bring us to Himself. For much of mankind, without evil, they would never turn to God. It is when we are in desperation and at the bottom of our own ability, we turn to God. Just as a child who seeks his father when the things of the world are too much for him to bear, we seek our Heavenly Father, when the things of this world are too much for us to handle on our own. Satan is one of God’s hardest working angels. What was meant for evil God turns into good. God is sovereign and perfectly good. The evil in the world is part of God’s design to make us into what He has already planned for us to be.

This problem was first framed by the Greek philosopher of the 5th cen. BC, Pythagoras of Samos.

The problem with those who stumble over the existence of evil is their starting point. They begin with man, rather than God.

If we begin with the God of the Bible, then we'd be able to put the world around us into proper perspective, though not perfectly.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Can I email that to our class?
That is so much what we even discussed last night, and came to the same conclusions you did....

Of course you can. I used some info from I think Wikipedia...... and mostly of course, the Bible.

 

[The Archangel]

This problem was first framed by the Greek philosopher of the 5th cen. BC, Pythagoras of Samos.

The problem with those who stumble over the existence of evil is their starting point. They begin with man, rather than God.

If we begin with the God of the Bible, then we'd be able to put the world around us into proper perspective, though not perfectly.

TC,

Excellent, Excellent! point. This just goes to prove this: If you ask the wrong questions, you inevitably get the wrong answers.

Rabbi Kushner asked "Why do bad things happen to good people?" Considering the circumstances that led him to ask that question, I certainly understand why he'd ask that question. But, he did ask the wrong question.

The proper question is "Why do good things happen to bad people?"

A man-centered theology (which is a contradiction in terms, by the way) requires man to be foremost in our hearts and affections. In this wrong theology, everything is seen from man's perspective (as if man, not God, were the main actor in the universe).

A God-centered theology begins with God and then adjudicates man in light of who God is. When we see God for who He really is, we cannot help but see ourselves as we really are--persons of unclean lips who dwell in the midst of unclean people. (And that, by the way, doesn't, or at least shouldn't, change if you subscribe to reformed theology or not).

Anyway...I enjoyed your comments very much.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[TCGreek]

TC,

Excellent, Excellent! point. This just goes to prove this: If you ask the wrong questions, you inevitably get the wrong answers.

Archangel,

Thanks for the compliments, and I do enjoy your comments too.
1. Asking the wrong questions I believe is the biggest problem in doing theology.

Rabbi Kushner asked "Why do bad things happen to good people?" Considering the circumstances that led him to ask that question, I certainly understand why he'd ask that question. But, he did ask the wrong question.

2. I read a book by Rabbi Kushner on God and as a good Jewish Rabbi as he is, he never mentions Jesus---I would not recommend the book.

The proper question is "Why do good things happen to bad people?"

3. Well, I usually tell my church to ask instead: What is God's purpose for allowing bad things to happen?

A man-centered theology (which is a contradiction in terms, by the way) requires man to be foremost in our hearts and affections. In this wrong theology, everything is seen from man's perspective (as if man, not God, were the main actor in the universe).

4. That's the problem with most of Western theology, and now we have to deal with postmodernism and the resultant church, The Emergent church--it's all man-centered.

A God-centered theology begins with God and then adjudicates man in light of who God is. When we see God for who He really is, we cannot help but see ourselves as we really are--persons of unclean lips who dwell in the midst of unclean people. (And that, by the way, doesn't, or at least shouldn't, change if you subscribe to reformed theology or not).

5. Right on! :thumbs: