Introducing Christian Doctrine by Millard Erickson (Part 2)

TC,

ABSOLUTELY! I couldn't agree more. Your question is quite difficult, but very necessary for a progression from baby Christian to mature believer.

If you are challenging you church to think this way, your church is very blessed.

Many Blessings to You

The Archangel

 

Providence can be as simple as God causing all things to work out for the good of those who love Him, those who are called according to His purpose.
If we stop and think about this, we will fall back on the problem of evil and ultimately theodicy. Not all things that happen seem good to us. Many things that happen are down right bad.... yet God causes them to work out for the good.
In order for God to be able to cause all things to work out for the good, He has to be intimately involved in all His creation. This leaves little room for God to be less than perfect in all His attributes. For example, His omniscience. God has nothing to learn. This leaves no room for open theism.
His omnipotence, He is in control of all His creation. Nothing is outside His control. Nothing happens without His permission.
Now some will say if all this is true, His omnibenevolence would be in question. I think we have already covered the fact that God is perfectly good. Evil is something that is necessary in God's plan for His creation.
Omnipresence is also in God's providence of His creation. At the consumation of God's plan for His creation, all things will have worked out perfectly. In fact, God is present at the consumation of all His creation, and has been since before the beginning of time. He is perfectly present.
I thought this might be food for thought of God's divine providence.
Anyone else?

 

Hello guys, good to see everyone honing the iron! Please allow me a drive-by post here. I want to share with you all a method I've discovered when dealing with people that believe you can lose salvation. Just say "in God's eyes". Yep, your probably already doing this, but I've never used it, assuming it to be too simple to be effective. But while on a recent trip, I spoke with a couple of pentacostal types who instisted on convincing me that true believers could fall away and be lost. I told them "let's assume that I will fall away from the faith at some future time, say, Febrary 15th, and I die on Feb 16th. Since God knows the future, was I ever really saved IN GOD'S EYES? To which they both began the mouth-open bug-eye response, and one of them finally said "that's right!" In that case, you never were really saved IN GOD'S EYES!" They said they never saw it that way before. "Now I understand" said the other guy.

Now I don't know if these guys are ready to leave their church, but hopefully they've been awakened to a grain of truth.

 

I believe...

...that in order to know how God uses evil or calamity and what view we ought to take of it, we have to look at Jesus. He has both the godly and the human (our) perspective, right?

Did Jesus ever do evil? Did He ever tempt anyone to do evil? How about calamity -- did He ever cause calamity? Besides driving the moneychangers out of the temple, I cannot think of a thing, can you? What were His comments about Tyre and Korazim or Sodom?

Now, did He reach out to EVERYONE? Did He love everyone? What was the only group He excoriated? The ones who "made up" their religion and were totally out of touch with God, right? But He did so so that even some of them might be saved (recall many of them believed but wouldn't say anything for fear of being cast out of the synagogue).

I think we can note 2 things if we study Jesus: 1) God doesn't "use" or "dispense" evil in any way. 2) God does use calamity and the curse which was brought upon us by man and by Satan. These are the ways by which we know we sin/transgress the truth.

We needn't leave these things out in the "ethereal" realm to be voted on by philosophers, guys. There's JESUS! Shouldn't all these questions about God direct our attention back to Jesus?

skypair

 

That is an effective way to share our belief JD. Thanks. In God's eyes is what counts huh?
I hope you don't just drive by. We would love everyone's input.

 

Was Jesus' death on the cross evil? Did God use that evil for the good of those who love Him?
Is calamity not evil? Now that you live in Texas, after a tornado passes through your area, let me know if you think it was evil.
We have much scripture that says that God does use evil for His purposes. Joseph is but one example. Jesus being the ultimate example.
I don't want to separate Jesus or His example from God the Father. Jesus told us that He and His Father are one. He said if you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father.

 

1. I've found the life of Joseph to be the greatest example of God's providence in the Bible.

2. Every stage of Joseph's life was marked by providence.

I particularly love these verses:

"Then Joseph said to his brothers, "Please come closer to me." And they came closer. And he said, "I am your brother Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt.

"Now do not be grieved or angry with yourselves, because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life.

"For the famine has been in the land these two years, and there are still five years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvesting.

God sent me before you to preserve for you a remnant in the earth, and to keep you alive by a great deliverance.

"Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt.

Hurry and go up to my father, and say to him, 'Thus says your son Joseph, "God has made me lord of all Egypt; come down to me, do not delay. (Gen 45:4-9, NASB).

3. Joseph had a profound theology, for he attributes everything to God.

"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive" (Gen 50:20, NASB).

 

Indeed He did! But He didn't cause the evil. He (Christ) might have been "in their faces" with the truth, but their evil responses time and again was the evil that was helped along by the god of this world, Satan.

On an individual level, calamity is "chance" as in the Proverb "time and chance happeneth to all." Sometimes we put ourselves in greater rist -- such as moving to Texas. Sometimes the odds overtake us. And like all chance, the outcome can be either good or evil.

Yes it does. And a lot of it depends on our reaction to calamity. I believe there's been many folk saved when calamity took away their ability to "go it alone."

I hope I wasn't doing that. What I was saying is that we really can't know a whole lot more about God's nature, essence, character, etc. beyond what Jesus lived, told, or confirmed to us.

skypair

 

I don't disagree with this statement but I want to emphasize that though satan does tempt, we are lead away MOST times by our own lusts. But, yes there are 'times' when Satan provides what could help us along.

I don't agree with that. Calamity is not chance since God determined that calamity TO happen. Chance would mean that it had to take God by surprize to.

Yes I believe we can, but I think I see what you are saying. We are to take the Word of God as the revelation of God. Yes, Christ exemplifies these things whether in His teaching or life (I am distinguishing here because He has not brought forth Judgment and wrath YET) but these are seen LONG before Christ came and the fullness of them in Him will only be seen at His return. But it is the Word of God that reveals the whole council.

 

It looks like the thread is winding down some, so it must be time to continue onward with the other 2 or 3 in Tim's previous list - unless someone would like to expound more on Gods providence or has questions concerning it. Or Sin for that matter.

I don't have a lot of time right now (eating time) but the others in Tim's earlier list left were :
1. Creation
2. Angels or Demons (and leave the demons having sex with humams out please - per Tim )

Who wants to begin, I did it last time

 

My 2 cents: God being in control doesn’t mean that He has determined calamity as in being the cause leading to any evil. To interpret the meaning of the story of Joseph, or the passage in Isaiah (creating evil) we must compare scriptures which clearly define God’s moral attributes. Simply for God to create evil would make God the author (cause) of sin. Comparing scripture we are plainly told God is without moral evil, therefore, He can not be the cause of it.

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

His work is perfect:
H8549
תּמים
tâmîym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

Without iniquity:
H5766
עלהעולהעולהעולעול
‛evel ‛âvel ‛avlâh ‛ôlâh ‛ôlâh
eh'-vel, aw'-vel, av-law', o-law', o-law'
From H5765; (moral) evil: - iniquity, perverseness, unjust (-ly), unrighteousness (-ly), wicked (-ness).

The fact the God is not surprised does not support the determinist doctrine on which I would contend all 5 points of Calvinism stand or fall. If God influences a situation, puts it into action, regardless if that situation has turned to evil (NOT by His doing, or being cause), as in the example of Joseph, God is still able to influence any situation for the good and as Joseph responded positively the good brought glory to God. Did God make the evil happen to Joseph for the good to come about? Absolutely not! That thought leads to pure fatalistic determinism. Simply, God continued to influence the situation and the result was that good prevailed over evil.

(Jam 1:13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:


Another point I would like to make is “create evil” does not translate to moral evil---but in contrast to “peace” such as war, calamity or disaster, pestilence.


In Isaiah 45:7 (“and create evil”) when looking into the context God is making a glorious promise to Cyrus and contending with those that hinder Him with a curse. God is telling them to contend with their fellow creatures and not with their Creator. He makes peace, (that’s what He does) and creates evil (and this is the result) He tells them He is the Lord and is instructing them to do these things and follows by giving them a “woe” for striving against Him. When God says, "I do these things" it refers to what He set in motion and the unfavorable response that this woe is being given for.

Here’s some more translations:

The NKJV
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.'

The NLT
I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness.
I am the one who sends good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

The ESV
“I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

The NASB
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

NIV
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

RSV
I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe,
I am the LORD, who do all these things.

 

I'm not sure if this is just a post in general or not.
However, one might presume you are addressing at least one point that has been posted, namely by me, with repect to 'God not being taken by surprize'.
First, (just in case this is addressed, at least in general, toward me) I am not a Calvinist nor a determinist.

Secondly, (if the post is in a general nature) you should take notice that everyone agrees with you that has posted herein so far. No one has espoused that God created 'moral' evil nor that He is the author of sin. And no one has said that God 'determined calamity as in being the cause leading to any evil". If they did please show me, cause I definately missed it

As far in as I know we have all agreed that the 'evil' spoken of is 'calamity' and, as I said, not moral evil. Nothing happens without God's express knowledge and perssion to come into being, so calamity can be specifically from God, or from Man which was allowed by God. IOW - we all agree with you here:

God used HIS BROTHERS 'intent for evil' and brought forth good from THEIR evil. And yes, God does bring forth specific 'calamity' as well, and we see this many time in God's judgment of Israel for their Idolitry and rebellion as their prophets declared what is about to come. And at the same time let us not forget that nothing happens without not only God's knowledge of it but also His permission regarding what (the extent) happens and that it will be permitted TO happen.

BTW - Thanks for your post

 

Demons are the same as the fallen angels, unclean spirits--one and the same.

I had one fellow who thought they were created separate from the fallen angels. Well, let the Scripture speak:

Luke 8:27, "He was met by a man possessed with demons."

v. 29, "For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man."

 

One more thing:

The reason why the unclean spirits are called demons is because demons possess.

When the unclean spirits possess, they are called demons.

The Greek cognate verb daimonizomai is used in Matt 4:24; 8:16, 28, 33 and is translated "demon-possessed" in the HCSB.

 

I didn’t post with the intent of beginning of a circular argument which would only pave the way to derail the tread with all too familiar debate. I posted my opinion for clarification purposes, which I do feel needed to be address, it was in general and whether or not you think they reflect properly on your posts or others here is a matter of opinion of little insignificance to me when evaluating a reflection that I felt need to be addressed. Any pride associated with who is espousing it correctly is NOT something I will engage in debate over in the “who said what”.

Not meant to sound overly unyielding or stern, but I don’t need you to tell me what I should take notice in, as I responded to what I took notice of.

IMO, you just espoused control to the point of determinism; exactly why I made my prior post for clarification.

Is God responsible for everything that happens including evil and sin to be in control or does He allow His creatures the freedom to choose within His will and maintain control? A doctrine that all events are predetermined and are unalterable by man must conclude both “everything is predetermined” and that “God is the author of sin.” A simple formula of logic:

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

Allan, there are too many bushes to beat here for us finite creatures to try and define what will come out from scripture about the Divine infinite knowledge of God which is what a lot of this will come down to. Do I have my theories, yes, can I back it with a host of scripture, yes, will I spend 6 months fighting about them here, no. But I will draw attention to beliefs on God’s knowledge leading to determinism from within the Calvinist boxed view of His sovereignty on occasion as I see fit. K

No problem. Frankly, I would love to engage in several issues being presented here, but it appears college course are about to take over my life. Time management is telling me to stay away from here! LOL

 

I guess I will start us off again :laugh:
I assume we should start off by saying that the words devil(s)and satan in general, are descriptive terms regarding the nature of the thing refered to.
a. Satan means advisary
b. Devil means slanderer
These descriptors are also used as titles indicating that those to whom it is designated to is the epitimy of these discriptors.

The term devils is used most often used in scripture to describe these fallen angels (as is unclean spirits) because of their nature in contrast to God's holy angels. We do find places where scripture does address them specifically as angels as well when it is speaking of those being who were and will finally be judged.

But in order to properly talk about the the above I have to speak first about Angels.
So what is an angel - From the Ryrie study bible on the doctrine of Angels: (pg. 1971)

Now, back to demons (devils)
In order to what a demon (devil) is we must first accertain what it is not:

What a demon is not: (Ryrie Study Bible - Doctrine of Demons)

What we DO find in the scriptures is that they are fallen angels.
Let us look at Satan first if we may - against from Ryrie study bible:

So we know from the the above scriptures that Satan (the Devil) was in fact an angel. Now let us look at Matt 12:24:

And to make the clear distinction that Beelzebub is in fact Satan, listen to our Lord:

Jesus is clear in stating there are two distinct kingdoms; one is His and the other is that of Satan. Satan is Beelzebub which means "Lord of the House".

This indicates that devils (demons) are angels just as Satan himself is an angel. They are not evil dead people but spirit beings.
Also here is a better example of devils beings angels:
Jude 6 states there are angels that kept not their 'first estate' but left it, who are held in chains under the darkness until the judgment of the great day. (and 2 Pet 2:4)
So some of these fallen angels are bound in chains awaiting the judgment of God. But not all of the fallen angels are bound in darkness (hell) but ALL ARE awaiting judgment. We see this in the incident with Jesus and a demonic (one possed of demons) in Matt 8:29 where he pleads with Jesus not to torment them (judge them) them before "The Time". I am just showing the correlation here, that devils (demons, unclean spirits) are the same creatures or beings as those 'angels' chained up and awaiting judgment. Thus they are termed fallen. I know it doesn't flow very well but I'm kinda busy tonight and our server is VERY slow. Just pick it apart and I'll deal with it later.

Much of the above also comes from Ryries Study Bible (Doctrine of Satan, Doctrine of Demons) but also from me as well. SInce I am at work I used this to at least start off the topic of WHAT demons and Angels are. SInce I am fairly certain this does not contradict Ryrie's "Basic Theology" I will put it forth.

 

Dr. Ryrie is a solid theologian.

Good analysis on demons being fallen angels.

 

Then you don't understand or misunderstood what I just said.
God allows His creation the choice or volition to act as it desires even to sin. The choice to sin is not God's but man (or angels). What has been espouces is Not that God FIRST decides you WILL sin, THEN what sins His creatures will do, AND THEN works it out so they must do them.

Agreed if ones hold to absolute Determinism.

Now do I hold that man has no will or choice? Nope! But God works out His plan in conjuction with mans choices and sometimes in spite of their choices. But all things work within His plan to fulfill His purpose for His glory. That is why scripture states "all things WORK TOGETHER for the good of those who love him".

Maybe you missed it the first time, but I'm not a Calvinist therefore my view of His soveriegnty is different from theirs. You are welcome to state what you like since I enjoy the interaction and this is a debate board. Therefore when you post (especially in relation to what I post) something that is incorrect I will draw attention to it, correct the misunderstanding as I see fit. K? :laugh:

You know everyone does this when we are misunderstood, I just kidding around with you.