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Introducing Christian Doctrine by Millard Erickson
- Thread starter tinytim
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tinytim said:
Tim,
Here's the grind: man moved from the mystical age of the Medieval times to the Enlightenment, being disillusioned with the mystical.
Then Enlightenment, Age of Reason, including Modernism, became the order of the day--we have benefited great from Modernity--Industrial revolution, Scientific contributions--but God was being kept at bay.
Then came alone the angry mood of Postmodernity, which is the era we are contending with.
Postmodernism says that there's no absolute truth, so now the church is trying to do church in this angry mood, with the worst from of what that looks like, being the Emergent Church.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Thanks tinytim! It is not my intention to get into the C/A debates. I was addressing what I believe to be serious biblical issues having nothing to do with neither C'ism or A'ism.tinytim said:
I see others have answered the Theism, Deism thing and I think they've answered it well.
As far as sovereignty is concerned, there are a few passages which, I think, describe and define it quite well.
Isaiah 46:8-11 (ESV)
"Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
[9] remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
[10] declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
[11] calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.
This passage speaks about God authoring the End from the beginning. It shows his absolute right to determine, well, everything.
Psalm 115:3 (ESV)
Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.
Psalm 135:6 (ESV)
Whatever the Lord pleases, he does,
in heaven and on earth,
in the seas and all deeps.
These passages speak to God being able to do what He pleases. From the above passages too, it would seem that everything God purposes to do, in some way, pleases Him and He is able to do what He decides to do. Further, once He decides to do something, it will be done, no man's efforts can thwart His plans. (there is tension here because of some OT passages using the word "Repent," but that's another discussion)
Exodus 33:19 (ESV)
And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The Lord.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
This passage (which Paul quotes in Romans), suggests God gives no specific reason for granting grace and mercy other than it is His Divine prerogative to do so as he wishes, or as he doesn't wish. (As a Calvinist, I believe this (these) passages refer to things up to and including salvation. However, I'm aware of other conclusions people have drawn).
Over all, these passages speak to this one fact: God is absolutely sovereign and He can do anything He pleases. Because God is absolutely good, anything He does is, by definition of His character, good. It would also seem that He is in control of everything as well.
Contrast these two pictures: Isaiah 6--God is seated on the throne suggesting everything is under control. The Wizard of Oz--the "great and powerful Oz" is behind the curtain pulling levers and switches trying to keep the facade of his power stable.
God is sovereign. He sits and watches the earth roll toward the end He has pre-established from the beginning. That's sovereignty.
Blessings,
The Archangel
Jarthur001
Active Member
TCGreek said:
I agreed with this.
right, TC... so since deism rose with the enlightenment, it only reasons that in the postmodern era, deism will decline....
Of course if theism is part of deism, then it will decline also...
What will take it's place?
And what should the church's role be now?
I know we need to stand on absolute truth..
Is there anything else we can be relaying to the masses about God?
Of course if theism is part of deism, then it will decline also...
What will take it's place?
And what should the church's role be now?
I know we need to stand on absolute truth..
Is there anything else we can be relaying to the masses about God?
Jarthur001
Active Member
tinytim said:
Tim,
I feel man will always find ways not to believe. Once one thing is disproved, they will move to a "new" idea, but never turn to God.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
No, not necessarily. I think there is a more fundamental problem here--Truth. Most people do not believe in an absolute, objective truth. They tend to think in terms of "what is true for me."tinytim said:
I think the future holds a virtual buffet of theologies--deism, modernism, etc., all under the umbrella of postmodernism which seeks to deny objective truth. So, if there is not truth,except for what is true for you, then all manner of worldviews will come into conflict at the same time, I don't think any one view, in particular, will dominate--except, of course, postmodernism which denies "Truth."
Did I confuse the issue more????
The Archangel
Jarthur001
Active Member
tinytim said:
I'll type my answer in the morning.
I'm off to bed.
tinytim said:
It has declined.
I think we need to reword that to avoid misunderstanding: "deism is part of theism..." since deism is one understanding of God.
These aberrant views of the God of the Bible will never cause God to go away. People who hold these veiws will go away, just ask Voltaire, the French skeptic.
The church just have to preach the Word and be obedient to it, for it is always relevant.
Man still has One major problem--Sin.
The Archangel said:
No not really, that is why there are teens that want to practice Christianity along side of zen Buddhism...
Religions are becoming a smorgasboard of beliefs that we can pick and choose from...
This is why the study of God is soooo important.
The Average Christian really has no idea how important it is to know about God. And in yrs to come, the truth of God will be harder and harder to find... I am afraid that truth will be mixed in with fiction so much that my grandchildren will really be confused.
We have to stand strong against the idea that truth is relative, but at the same time reach people where they are, and show them the real true God.
On the other hand, when I really think about the future of belief, it seems like the fact of absolute truth will be a comfort to those swimming in the sea of indecisiveness... it will be the life jacket that can be thrown to the ones that are drowning in non-absolute truth.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
I couldn't agree more! This is why I think getting the Bible right is SO important. Well-meaning people and well-meaning churches and well-meaning Archangels (cough, cough....like this one) still get things wrong. This is why it is so important that we study and pray and pray and study so that we can get the Bible right and then teach it to the next generation.tinytim said:
Regardless of one's theological leanings (C'ism/A'ism) there are undeniable issues common to both. I am much more concerned with both groups getting the non-negotiables (divinity of Christ, virgin birth, physical resurrection, etc.) right that I am with protecting some more of the minor points.
I do think you're right...the absolute truth of the Bible (God's truth) can and should be a life jacket to those floating in a sea of falsehood.
I'm off to bed.
Many Blessings,
The Archangel
ABSLOUTELY!!! But omnipotence is just like authority or sovereignty --- delegating some of your power or authority or sovereignty in no way diminishes them though it does diminish your responsibility for their use! That, indeed, is how evil entered into the earth.tinytim said:
And is God not free to entrust His authority to whom He will? Read John 8:9-10. It's a lesson on authority by Jesus that many ignore. Did Jesus have to go heal the centurion's son Himself? No, He could delegate it.
And what did Jesus say about the centurion who understood this? Oh, yeah -- "I have not seen so great a faith..." I'd like to quote Him on another occasion at this point --- "Oh, ye of little faith!"
skypair
Why not consider God, Who is One, to be the Personification of all Truth? Essences and attributes are all part of TruthJarthur001 said:
When we get to the Bema (1Cor 3), what are the "wood, hay, and stubble" that are burned with fire? Man's wisdom, man's thoughts, and man's glory -- or untruth. Untruth cannot reside with God.
skypair
This is all very true. But I would add (and you will agree) that knowing the Word of God is not enough. We must live it. In fact, I will go so far as to say that our doctrine is partially shaped by our service for the Lord. The less one serves the Lord, the poorer his or her doctrine will be. To give just one example, I didn't understand much of Acts until I actually became a missionary. Not that you can't understand the book of Acts unless you become a missionary, but I have no doubt that even just visiting a mission field will stoke the fires of understanding.The Archangel said:
This thread is all very interesting and needful, but sometimes on the BB I can tell who has been serving the Lord and who has just been in the study. Zeal and knowledge, knowledge and zeal, both are necessary.
Nor does the "simple text" give us the word "trinity" or about a half dozen other doctrines we believe in.The Archangel said:
Why do I not feel reassured by that denial? :laugh:
That echoes Adrian Rogers remark "as many degrees as the thermometer" which he unabashedly applied to 2Tim 3:7 -- "Ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
The Jews were BLINDED by one small thing - the law. They clave to it rather than to God. Do you think people can become blinded in this era? to where all their searching, even in the right places, will be to no avail?
Yet you have already offered a false reason not to believe that man is given some degree of sovereignty by God -- the fact that the "texts" do not outright call our authority from God "sovereignty.
I never take offense, friend. I am, however, inclined to respond "in kind" believing that, if that is the only way they feel they can deal with me, then likely that is the way they would like to be treated themselves.
How do you deal with Acts 17:27 -- Paul's explanation of God's creation of the nations for the purpose that they would seek Him if haply (accidentally) they might feel after Him, AND FIND HIM, though He be not far from EVERYONE of us?"
Is God's purpose frustrated in that He has created them nations/everyone to seek Him, to feel after Him, that they might FIND Him? Paul's remark highlights that no one seeks God in their sin -- but ALL seek Him in their crises! amidst tragedy. in the midst of their need for mercy.
Even within it is the grain of the truth that God gives His counsel and authority to man "calling ... the man of my counsel from a far country." I'm sure you would agree that these "men" were doing God's bidding in His place and that a "calling" is the delegation of both authority and responsibility.
You would do well to go to LWF (Dr. Roger's sermons) and listening to his sermon on "Our Authority in Christ." Anyone who is given decisions to make exercises the authority which he/she has been given from above. And on the reverse path, responsibility flows upward. Together they make up "sovereignty." We make a decision which is within the bounds of our God-given authority and we are responsible for it.
Well, I deny saying that or, at least, meaning it. You're not the first that I have questioned as to the "control" application of sovereignty applying to their lives as well. It is a serious question and, since you deny having any sovereignty, I suppose you will deny being 'controlling' as well.
And I doubt that you are but I would like you to consider the implications regarding God that making Him out to be "controlling" imply.
skypair
A good list of the "non-negotiables would be Eph 4:3-6, the "unity of the Spirit," would it not? These are the things that those who are saved ought to agree on else they don't understand their salvation.The Archangel said:
BTW, I don't think delving into the "deism-theism" of man advances us in understanding of the issues raised in the OP.
skypair
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