Introduction & BIG question: Can I be both Catholic & Baptist?

[StefanM]

What's the point of bringing any of this up? Yes it's true, Catholics killed Protestants and Protestants killed Catholics simply because of their faith tradition, both are guilty of this sin. Thankfully, neither of us does this type of thing anymore. We admit what happened, but do the Protestants do the same or do they only point out our misdeeds but cannot see their own because of the plank that covers their eyes?

You're right, but it's also important to note that Protestantism is not monolithic. For instance, Baptists have tended to be on the receiving end, historically, particularly from other Protestants. Many Baptists don't even consider themselves Protestants.

But I don't judge the Catholic church based on past errors. I just look at differences in doctrine for the basis of disagreement (which, IMO, needs to be civil).

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Were you intending to quote me?

No was an accidental

 

[StefanM]

No was an accidental

No worries! I was just a bit confused there for a moment.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

I'm wondering if an evangelical Anglican church might be something you could explore. The service itself is close to the Catholic Mass, but it is not within the Catholic church. From what I've known, there is more content in the homily, but my sample size is small. Admittedly, there aren't many of these.

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod also retains some elements in their services. Yes, Luther started the Reformation, but he was much closer to Catholicism than Baptists would be.

My preference would be that you pursue a Baptist church, but I know it's not the same for everyone. I do believe that a Protestant church between Catholic and Baptist could be a possible balanced option.

FWIW, others may skewer me for even suggesting these churches.

As an Anglican myself, I for one won't skewer you for suggesting these churches. I think a classical Anglican church (like in ACNA, REC, etc) and a confessional Lutheran church Ie LCMS) would be both be good ones to consider.

 

[StefanM]

As an Anglican myself, I for one won't skewer you for suggesting these churches. I think a classical Anglican church (like in ACNA, REC, etc) and a confessional Lutheran church Ie LCMS) would be both be good ones to consider.

I had an old boss (and friend) who was an evangelical Anglican. We talked a lot, and I learned a lot about Anglican beliefs (well, in some cases a range like from low church to Anglo-Catholic). He seemed to be a high church kind of fellow in practice but a low church fellow in theology.

 

[utilyan]

The Catholics admit to killing around 25 million - are you saying that Baptists are on record saying that Baptist leaders over the span of history have called for the killing of 25 million Catholics?

If so - do you say that because you enjoy "making stuff up" - and history means nothing at all to you?

What Muslim could not do the same total rejection of actual historic fact to then claim as you do - anything that comes to their imagination as if it also were historic fact???

First off all I bet Bob can be traced to a Catholic Like everyone else in his faith. So this silly ancestral blame thing can only go so far. I just started a new religion......>my religion has never killed anyone, or stolen anything, and 100% of it members are brilliant> sure I'm the only one in it and its one day old. LOL.

Where do you guys get these numbers?
Only 25 million? It has to be billions namely because we were the only thing around.

Every "secular" murder was catholic. There is all the day to day murder and evil among civilians and then all the military stuff. Medieval/Crusade/Mongol invasion.

Reminds me of this video game I play "Medieval Total War" (part of my catholic training to conquer the world). Every country is fighting and religion is definitely political weapon. Everyone is catholic, you got some pockets of pagans, bunch of Muslims in the east.

The sin score just holds no weight.

 

[BobRyan]

Jordan Kurecki said: ↑
Tell that to all the Baptists that the Catholic Church has killed over the years. The Catholic Church is drunk with the blood of Baptist martyrs.

As are the various Protestant sects, including Baptists. They have killed their share of innocent Catholics.

The Catholics admit to killing around 25 million - are you saying that Baptists are on record saying that Baptist leaders over the span of history have called for the killing of 25 million Catholics?

If so - do you say that because you enjoy "making stuff up" - and history means nothing at all to you?

What Muslim could not do the same total rejection of actual historic fact to then claim as you do - anything that comes to their imagination as if it also were historic fact???

What's the point of bringing any of this up? Yes it's true, Catholics killed Protestants and Protestants killed Catholics simply because of their faith tradition, both are guilty of this sin. Thankfully, neither of us does this type of thing anymore. We admit what happened, but do the Protestants do the same or do they only point out our misdeeds but cannot see their own because of the plank that covers their eyes?

I was responding to a discussion that you and Jordan were having where you seemed to claim that baptists had killed the same number of Catholics - as even your own Pope Bennedict claims Catholics killed 25 million. I simply point out that there is no such history for that sort of thing among the Baptists.

You argue "thankfully neither of us does that type of thing anymore" -- this is KEY. Would you even admit that the inquisition, that Lateran IV that all of that killing was a crime against humanity - a great sin... fallible!!???

If so - then I agree with you - a good lesson in the past of gross horrific error -- not of infallibility. Let us learn from it and not repeat it.

Sadly that has not been the response that we get from many catholics on this topic.

 

[BobRyan]

First off all I bet Bob can be traced to a Catholic Like everyone else in his faith.

By that logic the Baptists can trace themselves to Peter and to Moses.

Are you comfortable with that?

So this silly ancestral blame thing can only go so far.

You miss the point. WE are free to denounce all of it as crimes against humanity, horrific sin. Are you?

WE do not have to lay a blanket of 'infallibility' over all of it. -- How about you??

 

[utilyan]

I was responding to a discussion that you and Jordan were having where you seemed to claim that baptists had killed the same number of Catholics - as even your own Pope Bennedict claims Catholics killed 25 million. I simply point out that there is no such history for that sort of thing among the Baptists.

You argue "thankfully neither of us does that type of thing anymore" -- this is KEY. Would you even admit that the inquisition, that Lateran IV that all of that killing was a crime against humanity - a great sin... fallible!!???

If so - then I agree with you - a good lesson in the past of gross horrific error -- not of infallibility. Let us learn from it and not repeat it.

Sadly that has not been the response that we get from many catholics on this topic.

If there was binding Catholic teaching to kill Jews it would have been worst NAZI holocaust and we would have heard about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Council_of_the_Lateran

• Canon 67: Jews may not charge extortionate interest.

• Canons 68: Jews and Muslims shall wear a special dress to enable them to be distinguished from Christians so that no Christian shall come to marry them ignorant of who they are.[11]

• Canon 69: Declares Jews disqualified from holding public offices, incorporating into ecclesiastical law a decree of the Holy Christian Empire.[11]

Canon 70: Takes measures to prevent converted Jews from returning to their former belief.[11]

In addition, it threatened excommunication to those who supplied ships, arms, and other war materials to the Saracens.
Effective application of the decrees varied according to local conditions and customs.[3]


======

Important point here is......why would any of those laws apply if you were required by "church teaching" to kill them?

Also none of this is ex cathedra, It was setup for crusades.


Bob give me the canon law verse or numbers for killing Jews.


I went looking for Jewish that keep a good history of anti-Semitism.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0012_0_11919.html


The fourth Lateran (12th Ecumenical) Council was summoned in 1215 by Pope Innocent III to call for a crusade and to combat various heresies. A delegation of Jews from southern France attempted to ensure that no anti-Jewish decisions were taken, but the Council issued four important regulations concerning the Jews. Canon 67 states that Jews must be prevented from exacting immoderate usury from Christians, and also that Jews must pay tithes on property formerly owned by Christians. Canon 68 complains that in many places Christians, Jews, and Saracens are outwardly indistinguishable, so that occasionally, "by mistake, Christians mix with Jewish or Saracen women" and vice versa. Non-Christians must therefore be compelled to dress differently from Christians (see also Jewish *badge ). It is alleged there that this is also laid down in the Mosaic law. Jews are not to appear in public at Easter, or on days of Christian lamentation, because they are in the habit of dressing up and railing at Christians on such occasions, nor may they blaspheme against the name of Jesus in any other way. The next canon prohibits Jews from holding public office, and the last insists that converts to Christianity must desist from Jewish observances. An appendix is concerned with the proposed crusade. It lays down in passing that Jews must be compelled to remit interest on debts owed to them by those who take the cross. That all the topics mentioned here reappear in subsequent legislation is a measure of the comparative inefficacy of the Council's decisions.





You would think, A Jewish website who's job was to somewhat keep a grudge score of Christians acts against Jews, WOULD MENTION church TEACHING to KILL JEWS.


But BOB.. No one is killing Jews today. You still murder with abortions. And I am not LYING. and your pride has to damn me a monster. You are looking for a monster? look in the mirror brother. Ask your SDA hospitals. Because you are murdering.

Bob I know your not for abortions. Do a tiny effort to look into it.

 

[BobRyan]

utilyan said: ↑
First off all I bet Bob can be traced to a Catholic Like everyone else in his faith.

By that logic the Baptists can trace themselves to Peter and to Moses.
Are you comfortable with that?

--------------------------

You miss the point. WE are free to denounce all of it as crimes against humanity, horrific sin. Are you?
WE do not have to lay a blanket of 'infallibility' over all of it. -- How about you??

Because you are murdering.

Bob I know your not for abortions. Do a tiny effort to look into it.

If the idea is to respond with nonsense - I understand you need to do what you need to do.

 

[BobRyan]

I was responding to a discussion that you and Jordan were having where you seemed to claim that baptists had killed the same number of Catholics - as even your own Pope Bennedict claims Catholics killed 25 million. I simply point out that there is no such history for that sort of thing among the Baptists.

You argue "thankfully neither of us does that type of thing anymore" -- this is KEY. Would you even admit that the inquisition, that Lateran IV that all of that killing was a crime against humanity - a great sin... fallible!!???

If so - then I agree with you - a good lesson in the past of gross horrific error -- not of infallibility. Let us learn from it and not repeat it.

Sadly that has not been the response that we get from many catholics on this topic.

Indeed is is more a "deny all" response that we get to the LATERAN IV ecumenical council command to "exterminate" Jews and heretics.

And the answer? -- 25 million killed by Pope Benedict's own count - as he admitted that more than half were not in his report.

If there was binding Catholic teaching to kill Jews it would have been worst NAZI holocaust and we would have heard about it.

So then you admit someone would have heard about LATERAN IV by now?

Or you admit that 25 million is more than 6 million??

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0012_0_11919.html
The fourth Lateran (12th Ecumenical) Council was summoned in 1215 by Pope Innocent III to call for a crusade and to combat various heresies.

So then that council calling for the "extermination" of Jews and heretics - is truly a crime against humanity -- nothing at all infallible about it.

======================= LATERAN IV
FORDHAM – (Jesuit)

The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp


CANON 3“Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.”

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Indeed is is more a "deny all" response that we get to the LATERAN IV ecumenical council command to "exterminate" Jews and heretics.

And the answer? -- 25 million killed by Pope Benedict's own count - as he admitted that more than half were not in his report.



So then you admit someone would have heard about LATERAN IV by now?

Or you admit that 25 million is more than 6 million??



So then that council calling for the "extermination" of Jews and heretics - is truly a crime against humanity -- nothing at all infallible about it.

======================= LATERAN IV
FORDHAM – (Jesuit)

The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp


CANON 3“Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.”

Thank you for exposing the lies of the Catholics in this board.

The Roman Catholic Church is a murderous organization who's father also is a murderer.

 

[utilyan]

LOL.

I just posted.......... A JEWISH SOURCE. JEWISH HISTORIANS.

And they said there this no extermination happening!

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0012_0_11919.html


LEARN TO READ. And then read my last post again.

What are you guys saying?

In one place you SAY JEWS will bring the ANTI-CHRIST , That Jews are false religion and PAGANS are EVIL.

And then you say CATHOLICS a religion of Satan is killing JEWS and PAGANS.

:::SHRUG:::

Which is it? Make up your mind!

Bagdad Bob tactics won't work with me.

oh wait his name is bob......your name is bob

 

[BobRyan]

======================= LATERAN IV
FORDHAM – (Jesuit)

The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp


CANON 3“Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.”

LOL.

I just posted.......... A JEWISH SOURCE. JEWISH HISTORIANS.

And they said there this no extermination happening!

hahaha - I just posted a Jesuit website statement on the LATERAN IV council - stating that they were talking about exterminating Jews and heretics ...

Your come-back that they were only killing Jews that had at one time converted to Christianity - merely helps both Catholics and Jews condemn those poor victims but does nothing to "brighten" the smile on the face of that historic fact.

Try again.

 

[BobRyan]

What's the point of bringing any of this up? Yes it's true, Catholics killed Protestants and Protestants killed Catholics simply because of their faith tradition, both are guilty of this sin. Thankfully, neither of us does this type of thing anymore. We admit what happened, but do the Protestants do the same or do they only point out our misdeeds but cannot see their own because of the plank that covers their eyes?

There is the slightly less fox-holed response. I encourage Utilyan to step-up at least to that.

 

[utilyan]

======================= LATERAN IV
FORDHAM – (Jesuit)

The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp


CANON 3“Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.”




hahaha - I just posted a Jesuit website statement on the LATERAN IV council - stating that they were talking about exterminating Jews and heretics ...

Your come-back that they were only killing Jews that had at one time converted to Christianity - merely helps both Catholics and Jews condemn those poor victims but does nothing to "brighten" the smile on the face of that historic fact.

Try again.

You don't know how to read. A heretic here is a Catholic teaching wrong faith. A Jew is simply a Jew, they are even called Jews.

2nd problem is you READ THE WORD EXTERMINATE and have equated it to kill.

Example you practice heresy you get excommunicated for 1 year. After that year you are condemned a HERETIC. You are not allowed to hold office after this. If your a priest you are not allowed to hold mass.

To eliminate heresy is pretty impossible, That takes a perfect knowledge of the entire religion. without any mistake on the entire Christian faith.


Look at the process of "extermination"


We decree that those who give credence to the teachings of the heretics, as well as those who receive, defend, and patronize them, are excommunicated; and we firmly declare that after any one of them has been branded with excommunication, if he has deliberately failed to make satisfaction within a year, let him incur ipso jure the stigma of infamy and let him not be admitted to public offices or deliberations, and let him not take part in the election of others to such offices or use his right to give testimony in a court of law. Let him also be intestable, that he may not have the free exercise of making a will, and let him be deprived of the right of inheritance. Let no one be urged to give an account to him in any matter, but let him be urged to give an account to others. If perchance he be a judge, let his decisions have no force, nor let any cause be brought to his attention. If he be an advocate, let his assistance by no means be sought. If a notary, let the instruments drawn up by him be considered worthless, for, the author being condemned, let them enjoy a similar fate. In all similar cases we command that the same be observed. If, however, he be a cleric, let him be deposed from every office and benefice, that the greater the fault the graver may be the punishment inflicted.

 

[Yeshua1]

I can't give up Mass at the Catholic church so I won't be converting. It's too important to me. I will however listen to Preachers explain scriptures until which time they say something like "All Catholics are going to hell," and then I will just pray for them. I don't believe in just the Bible alone so I guess I am not Baptist but I can learn things about the scriptures from them so it's all a good thing I know Jesus is guiding me, but it isn't to convert because if it was then I would feel welcomed and I don't. That is not to say that every single person on this thread hasn't been wonderful because you have! So thank you and bless you all

Jesus was cricified ONE time though, for all of our sins, and rose again to fully justify sinners, so why the need to keep having him put to death all over again, as his death was a once and for all thing?

 

[Yeshua1]

Love God, Love Neighbor. Luke 10.

By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.


Your first question is harder. I don't know. I would imagine. You would have to take the Eucharist at some point spiritually if not in life or in the last day after resurrection. Keep in mind spiritual does not mean lesser reality or only symbolic. John 6. I' will have to research this.

When does aCatholic get saved, and receive the Holy Spirit then?

And why the need for additional graces of Sacraments, since we nowhave ALL spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus?

Is there something that you can do to make the blood null and void?

What sin is there that can undo what God has done then?

 

[Yeshua1]

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

If Jesus Christ has ever forgiven you, that is the Sacrament of Reconciliation.


If you want to argue you can be saved without God forgiving you, then you got a case.

Else you ran into a word you don't understand "Sacrament".

See Forgiveness from God is a SACRED gift. Hence a sacrament.


You might have a problem with extra reverence given to sacred gifts from God like a ceremony, tradition or ritual. Like confessing sins through a priest rather then by yourself. Say that then.[/QUOTE

Again, what extra grace is needed to improve upon the Grace in the death of Jesus as a full atonement for sins?

God accepted His sacrifice by raising him from the dead, so why does the church of Rome spit in his face and claim that it was good, just not good enough?

 

[Internet Theologian]

Jesus was cricified <sic> ONE time though, for all of our sins, and rose again to fully justify sinners, so why the need to keep having him put to death all over again, as his death was a once and for all thing?

Use spell check.

One Catholic apologist, Robert Sungenis, while debating Dr. James White, stated that in Hebrews the offering of Christ is a plurality, denoting more than one sacrifice. White finally called him on it at the end of the debate, and Sungenis denied he stated it ('sacrifice' is plural in reference to Christ in Hebrews 10). Yet, in fact, in defense of the RC mass, he used it to affirm more than one offering of Christ in Hebrews 10, stating it is plural, and did so more than once.

I waited patiently for Dr. White to address this in the debate, and he did not address this until the end of the debate. Sungenis said something like 'I never said that' (frankly a lie) and Dr. White said 'OK' or something like that.

That said the typical RC response will be to deny this as the meaning of the mass, which historically will be proven untrue. Lies, self-deception, cover-ups, denying Scripture, 'traditions' above the Word of God, idolatry, Mariolatry, all are just another day in the life of RC false teaching.

I believe this to be the correct video, although I listened to this debate on The Dividing Line podcast: