Well when you decide to make an actual biblically based scriptural argument I'll respond. At this point your post was nothing but pejorative.
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Irrational theology.
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Well when you decide to make an actual biblically based scriptural argument I'll respond. At this point your post was nothing but pejorative.
I have made many and you seem to either ignore them or reject them.
The text never once says there is a pre-millennial rapture or an actual, literal, post rapture reign of Christ on the earth for exactly 1000 years. It is not found in the text. So, where do you get it if it's not in the 6 verses you are using?
Not an argument. Try again.
It's an argument. No need to try again as you will reject anything that goes against your irrational view.
Uh no, if you were able to make an argument from scripture you would not feel the need to us pejorative arguments. Weakness on your part due to lack of an argument leaves ad hominems.
I have made the argument and you are just dragging it out because you know you have nothing in the Bible to back your view. The six verses in Revelation 20 don't proclaim a premillennial rapture of the church with Jesus returning 7 years later to rule the entire word, but only for 1000 years before Jesus just high-tails it out so that Satan can wreak havoc for an unspecified (but short) time when Jesus then comes back to destroy all.
Come on, Rev. You have to realize that such a pre-millennial view is irrational.
So, how did you come up with that kind of a view since the text doesn't support you?
Satan will be bound for 1000 years. Personally, I don’t think God needs physical log chains from a hardware store to do the job.
There are demons bound in Tartarus that have been there thousands of years. The way satan and his demons are PRESENTLY DECEIVING the nations I think they may have been released now, prior to the Great Tribulation, but I’ve no way to know they have.
There are demons bound in Tartarus that have been there thousands of years. The way satan and his demons are PRESENTLY DECEIVING the nations I think they may have been released now, prior to the Great Tribulation, but I’ve no way to know they have.
Where, in being bound, does it say he couldn't deceive anyone? It says "deceive the nations."
(Revelation 20:1-6)
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.
Nations are people.
“We” haven’t watched any Marvel movies. Speak for yourself.
For empirical evidence, look no further than America. It, and well over half of its individuals, are severely deceived. Probably 3/4ths or more.
Must I do your homework for you?
One of the Greek words translated "hell" in the English versions is "tartarus." Peter uses the word in referring to the place of judgment for evil angels.
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell [tartarus] and delivered them into chains of darkness reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example in those who afterward would live ungodly (2 Peter 2:4-6).
This is the only New Testament use of the term. It is a temporary place where certain fallen angels who sinned are now confined.
Jude
Jude also speaks about this place for sinning angels. He calls it a place of everlasting chains.
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home - these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day (Jude 6)
It is possible that tartarus is the same place as the abyss, or the pit. It should not be understood as any place of judgment for wicked humans. Therefore, "hell" is an unfortunate translation.
Summary
Tartarus is the place where certain sinful angels are presently kept bound. This specific Greek word is only used once in the New Testament. It has no reference to the final destination of the wicked, or hell. Tartarus is not even the final destination of angels. It is, therefore, unfortunate that some English versions translate the term as "hell" because it confuses this place with the place of final judgment of the wicked.
“We” haven’t watched any Marvel movies. Speak for yourself.
For empirical evidence, look no further than America. It, and well over half of its individuals, are severely deceived. Probably 3/4ths or more.
Must I do your homework for you?
One of the Greek words translated "hell" in the English versions is "tartarus." Peter uses the word in referring to the place of judgment for evil angels.
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell [tartarus] and delivered them into chains of darkness reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example in those who afterward would live ungodly (2 Peter 2:4-6).
This is the only New Testament use of the term. It is a temporary place where certain fallen angels who sinned are now confined.
Jude
Jude also speaks about this place for sinning angels. He calls it a place of everlasting chains.
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home - these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day (Jude 6)
It is possible that tartarus is the same place as the abyss, or the pit. It should not be understood as any place of judgment for wicked humans. Therefore, "hell" is an unfortunate translation.
Summary
Tartarus is the place where certain sinful angels are presently kept bound. This specific Greek word is only used once in the New Testament. It has no reference to the final destination of the wicked, or hell. Tartarus is not even the final destination of angels. It is, therefore, unfortunate that some English versions translate the term as "hell" because it confuses this place with the place of final judgment of the wicked.
So you're purely guessing, with no empirical data, regarding the United States.
Then you use a word that is translated "hell" but you don't like that translation so you give it your own, different translation, which still doesn't help your interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6.
Ultimately you are working hard to force your futurist theory onto the text and then expect everyone to simply accept your contortions as fact.
You say that nations are people in Revelation 20, but you deny nations as all humanity in Revelation 19.
You still cannot explain how the vultures devour all humanity who was opposed to God in Revelation 19, yet after 1000 years of Christ Jesus ruling over only the holy people of God, a people that cannot be numbered rises up to attack the holy city that Jesus unexplainably leaves just because he wants Satan to deceive more people before Jesus casts him in the lake of fire.
Such a view as yours is irrational.
37818
Well-Known Member
Really?
Show from the word of God what is simply not true.
The plain reading of Revelation 20:1-15 does not need made up symbolism. Calling something irrational and what is obviously irrational.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Tartarus G5020
2Pe 2:4 ...the angels G32 who sinned G264 (G5660), but G235 cast them down to hell G5020 (G5660)...
The subterranean abyss of Greek mythology where demigods were punished. It is mentioned in the pseudepigraphal book of Enoch as the place where fallen angels are confined. It is found only in its verbal form in 2Pe_2:4 meaning to cast into or consign to Tartarus. These angels are being held in this netherworld dungeon until the day of final judgment. Complete WordStudy Dictionary
@taisto you just will not accept the truth that the word "humanity" you insert into the text of Rev 19:18 is not found in the Greek it is a editors choice to insert it. I have pointed this out to you with the Greek text and you still want to add words to the bible. The only reason that I can see for you insisting on it is that you need it for your theological view.
But on the other hand you deny clear text in Rev 19. The context shows that it is not all humanity that is devoured but “...the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all, free and slave, both small and great.” Rev 19:18
“...I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him…” Rev 19:19
“...the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet ... These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.” Rev 19:20
“And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.” Rev 19:21
Question who went to battle with Christ? the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, {Rev 19:18 tells us the composition of the armies, kings, captains, mighty men, free and slave}
Who were cast into LOF? the beast, and the false prophet
Who were killed? the rest were killed {the kings of the earth, and their armies}
The context tells us who were consumed by the birds and it is not all humanity as you like to interject but Kings and their armies as the text clearly shows.
So to answer your question as to who would go onto the 1000 yr reign of Christ it would be all those that were not part of the armies. If you will remember it is those that were beheaded for their faith that reign with Christ for the 1000 yrs “... those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus...they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years.” Rev 20:4
You continue to force your illogical view on the text.
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You keep denying all humanity, even though every English translation says all humanity. Perhaps every English translation is a terrible translation and should be dismissed. Or, they all got it right and you are desperate to get out of the conundrum you face.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You keep denying the Greek in favor of your view. But you use the NLT as support of your view so lets see what the NLT says.
Rev 19:21 Their entire army was killed by the sharp sword that came from the mouth of the One riding the white horse. And the vultures all gorged themselves on the dead bodies.
So we see that the bible you use tells us that it was the armies that 1] were killed & 2] it was them that the vultures gorged upon.
Are you now going to deny that verse says it was the kings & their armies? I do not see your all humanity included.
I looked up the NLT and even it does not say "All humanity is killed". Here's the quote:
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, shouting to the vultures flying high in the sky: “Come! Gather together for the great banquet God has prepared. 18 Come and eat the flesh of kings, generals, and strong warriors; of horses and their riders; and of all humanity, both free and slave, small and great.”
Even the NLT is saying it is the armies that are killed, and those armies ARE OF all humanity, which plainly means the soldiers, generals, captains, whatever, came from all nations on earth, which fits Scripture that essentially says all nations will be against Israel.
Zechariah 12:3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, shouting to the vultures flying high in the sky: “Come! Gather together for the great banquet God has prepared. 18 Come and eat the flesh of kings, generals, and strong warriors; of horses and their riders; and of all humanity, both free and slave, small and great.”
Even the NLT is saying it is the armies that are killed, and those armies ARE OF all humanity, which plainly means the soldiers, generals, captains, whatever, came from all nations on earth, which fits Scripture that essentially says all nations will be against Israel.
Zechariah 12:3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
"...and of all humanity, both free and slave, small and great.”
No matter how much you try to reduce God's word to a select group, the facts are clear that all humanity, free, slave, small and great, are food for the cultures. You have to accept that you have a conundrum that cannot be explained in pre-millennial interpretation where there is a strict linear timeline. Your timeline has to be questioned.
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