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Irressistible Grace #2

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ivdavid

Active Member
How does God not predestine some men to condemnation if he has predestined some to be saved?
How does a parent not predestine their guests to be denied any serving of greens if they have predestined their children to be fed greens at their evening dinner?

Are you saying the condemned had a choice to be saved until they "filled up" their measure of sin?
Well, they aren't condemned to begin with - just non-elect. And yes, they very much have a choice to be saved until they fill up their measure of sin. God might choose to give them a new heart (1Sam 10:6-11) unto repentance, making them partakers of the Holy Spirit (Heb 6:4-6) and enlighten them with the knowledge of Christ(Heb 10:26) from which they then fall away, returning to the dirt after being washed (2Pet 2:22)

Are you disagreeing with most Calvinists who insist that God made his choice before the foundation of the world
I do not disagree with them concerning God's sovereign election of His children of Promise unto assured salvation. I only disagree with their saying that God passed over the remaining non-elect in a way that amounted to His decision to never act towards their salvation in any way at any time.

and are you saying rather that it is his choice since the cross of Christ to determine who will be saved based on their response to his longsuffering exhortation?
Not only since the cross of Christ. And not so with His unconditionally elected children of Promise. But yes, the non-elect throughout all time have been determined to be saved or condemned based on their response in faith alone.

God elects all who are born again and that is the only ones who God elects.
Where are you getting this from? God's election of grace has always been unconditional of man's acts - but you yourself have said one is born again by receiving the Holy Spirit in faith. How does election remain unconditional if dependent on man's response of faith?
.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
JD731 said
How does God not predestine some men to condemnation if he has predestined some to be saved?


How does a parent not predestine their guests to be denied any serving of greens if they have predestined their children to be fed greens at their evening dinner?
.

ivdavid, when does anyone ever use that kind of argument about anything? You have to admit it is a silly comparison. The context of Rom 8 and Ephesians 1 concerning predestination is not to salvation but it is to an image. That image cannot be achieved while one lives in our weak bodies on the earth even when we are saved.Those who are predestinated are those who are saved and have the Spirit indwelling their mortal bodies. You quoted a verse to me that said "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Remember? Inheritance is all over the page of Rom 8 and Eph 1.

Take a look in Romans 8;

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Who is an heir here? It is "the children of God" who have not received their inheritance and cannot until they receive their adoption, to wit the redemption of the body and then they are in the image of Christ.

Many times in the scriptures when you see this word 'glory" in any of it's forms, you are looking to a future event.

Psa 73:24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.

I could make a strong argument on this subject from Rom 8 and Eph 1 but it would not help you or most people who are here defending out of context presuppositions you have adopted. I am so surprised that intelligent people like you who show up here would be so shallow in following the logic in a given text. There is no way any person being honest with the text of the two chapters I mentioned can come out believing that God is teaching that anyone or any group are predestined to be saved from the penalty of sin, which is the second death in the lake of fire. It cannot be done because it is not what is being taught by the words we are given in the texts. If you were predestinated to be saved, and you claimt o be saved now, then your predestination is behind you and you have no reason to hope. WHY? Because the text says this!

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Ph 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Here is some logic. If God has something for us in the future that will be a completion of the whole, he might call what he has given already, a down payment, or "an earnest.." What has he given already to make us sons of God. In Rom 8 he has given his Spirit to indwell us, but our bodies are not glorified like the body of Jesus. So, what would be the earnest. The Spirit of course. Look at this;

Eph 1:13 In whom ye (gentiles in the context) also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What did Paul say in Rom 8 the redemption of the purchase possession is? He said it was the redemption of the body.

Calvinism is illogical and unreasonable, IMO.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
JD731 said
Are you saying the condemned had a choice to be saved until they "filled up" their measure of sin?


Well, they aren't condemned to begin with - just non-elect. And yes, they very much have a choice to be saved until they fill up their measure of sin. God might choose to give them a new heart (1Sam 10:6-11) unto repentance, making them partakers of the Holy Spirit (Heb 6:4-6) and enlighten them with the knowledge of Christ(Heb 10:26) from which they then fall away, returning to the dirt after being washed (2Pet 2:22)

Well,I see you are not the typical Calvinist. They believe the choice of who is saved is made by God before the creation of the world. When I told of the Calvinist evangelist who answered no to both of my questions 1) can a chosen man ever ultimately be lost or 2) can an unelected man ever be saved, you seemed to agree with him. I am having a hard time keeping up because this post of yours seems to indicate that is not your position after all. Can you clarify?
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
JD731 said
and are you saying rather that it is his choice since the cross of Christ to determine who will be saved based on their response to his longsuffering exhortation?


Not only since the cross of Christ. And not so with His unconditionally elected children of Promise. But yes, the non-elect throughout all time have been determined to be saved or condemned based on their response in faith alone..


JD731 Said
Are you disagreeing with most Calvinists who insist that God made his choice before the foundation of the world
I do not disagree with them concerning God's sovereign election of His children of Promise unto assured salvation. I only disagree with their saying that God passed over the remaining non-elect in a way that amounted to His decision to never act towards their salvation in any way at any time.
.

This is terribly confusing. I doubt any reader on this board understands your position or agrees with it. Do you know of anyone anywhere who agrees with you?
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Double speak?


We are talking about a wonderful and kind and able God who will save every one who will come to him by faith. That is all it takes to be saved. Please do not teach that man cannot believe in Jesus Christ.

Where are these philosophies in The BiBle?

1.) "...a wonderful and kind and able God who will save every one who will come to him by faith.

2.) That is all it takes to be saved.

3.) Please do not teach that man cannot believe in Jesus Christ.

Seems like enemies of God leave out, 'sin', in any consideration of Re-establishing a Regenerated Relationship, with God.

"Repent and believe", are words that I see.

Those souls, who have never Experienced "being lost",
can not have an Experience of "being Saved".

Those who have "been lost" and Shown their Helpless Condition and State of Being, before God, as a dead, lost, wicked, enemy of God, then, can Have a Salvation Experience, where God Grants them Repentance toward what they are, as God-hating, Hellbound lost souls, Condemned, and under The Wrath of God, as well as, DAMEND, apart from God Giving them the Gift of Repetance AND Faith Toward jesus Christ's Work, as their Savior.

You leave out, "being lost", "dead in tresspasses and sins", as the thing to be Given Repentance for, after being CONVICTED AND "SALVATION".

The idea of giving 'consent to' some form of religious Jesus and calling it "belief", is NOT HOW GOD SAVS SOULS.

And the idea of rebrobate, condemned souls, that are fitted for destruction, is not within the scope of your religion, either.

Where ARE you getting this "God"?

From, "Smile America, God Loves you"?

When, God says, Repent and "Flee The Wrath of God to Come"(?)
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Well,I see you are not the typical Calvinist. They believe the choice of who is saved is made by God before the creation of the world. When I told of the Calvinist evangelist who answered no to both of my questions 1) can a chosen man ever ultimately be lost or 2) can an unelected man ever be saved, you seemed to agree with him. I am having a hard time keeping up because this post of yours seems to indicate that is not your position after all. Can you clarify?

This is where, "Worshipping God", is lost on His enemies.

PRAISE JESUS, GOD ALMIGHTY that YOU HAVE REVEALED that YOU are a GOD WHO has SHOWN US the Answer to 1) can a chosen man ever ultimately be lost

is, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", Saved to The Uttermost.

and PRAISE JESUS, GOD ALMIGHTY that YOU HAVE REVEALED that YOU are a GOD WHO has SHOWN US the Answer to 2) can an unelected man ever be saved,
is, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", *

Since, THAT IS THE ONLY GOD THERE IS, WE WORSHIP HIM, for WHO HE SAYS HE is AND NOT "WHAT MAN THINKS hE MIGHT BE".

From: His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 3

*"I shall prove that there is a non-election, or rejection of some of the sons of men, when others were chosen; and, indeed, from the election of some, may fairly be inferred, the non-election of others.

Common sense tells us, that of persons or things, if some are chosen, others must be left: if there is a remnant of the sons of men, according to the election of grace, then there are others not included in it, which are left unchosen, and are called the rest.

"The election", that is, elect men, "hath obtained it", righteousness and eternal life; "and the rest were blinded", #Ro 11:5,7.

Our Lord says, "I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen", #Joh 13:18 plainly intimating, that all were not chosen, and it is certain one was not, and whom he calls "the son of perdition"; one, not only deserving of it, but appointed to it; for though chosen to an office, as an apostle, yet not to grace and glory, #Joh 17:12 and how many such there be, no man can pretend to say;

but it is evident there are some, and who are generally described by negative characters; as not known by God and Christ; the elect are God's people, whom he knows; they are elect, according to his foreknowledge;

which carries in it love and affection to them; but of others Christ says, "I never knew you"; he knew them by his omniscience, but not with such knowledge as he knows the elect of God; he never knew them as the objects of his Father's love, and his own; he never knew them as the objects of his Father's choice, and his own; he never knew them in the gift of his Father to him, #Mt 7:23

hence they are represented as "not" loved, which is meant by being hated: "Esau have I hated";

that is, had not loved him, as he had Jacob; for it cannot be understood of positive hatred, for God hates none of his creatures, as such, only as workers of iniquity; but of negative hatred, or of not loving him; which, in comparison of the love he bore to Jacob, might be called hatred: in which sense the word is used in #Lu 14:26.

Moreover, they are spoken of as "not" being given to Christ;

for if there are some that are "given" to him "out of the world", then there must be a world which are not given, and for whom he has not so much concern as even to pray for them, #Joh 17:6,9

they are frequently described, as not having their names written, and not to be found written in the Lamb's book of life, #Re 13:8 17:8 20:15.

Now as election is signified by the writing of names in the book of life, non-election is expressed by not writing the names of some there; and if those whose names are written there, are the elect, then those whose names are not written these, but are left out, must be non-elect: to which may be added, that our Lord says of these persons, "Ye are not of my sheep", and gives this as a reason why they believed not in him, #Joh 10:26.

But the goats he will place on his left hand, pass sentence of condemnation on them, and send them into everlasting punishment, #Mt 25:33,41,46.



Moreover, from the effects of election not having place in some persons, it may be concluded, that there are such who are non-elect.

The effectual calling is a certain fruit and effect of election; "Whom he did predestinate, them he also called", #Ro 8:30

not only externally, but internally, with an holy and heavenly calling, to grace here, and glory hereafter.

But are all called in this manner?

No; there are some who have not so much as the outward call by the ministry of the word, have not the external means of grace; but as they sin without law, perish without it, #Ro 10:14 2:12.

Those who are chosen, are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ;

they are chosen to holiness, and through sanctification of the Spirit.

But are all made like to Christ, and conformed to his image? do not many bear the image of Satan, imitate him, and do his lusts? are all men made holy, or have they the sanctification of the Spirit?

Whom God predestinates he justifies, by the righteousness of his Son.

But are all men justified?

No; for though he justifies some of all sorts and nations; as the circumcised Jews by faith, and the uncircumcised Gentiles through faith, yet not every individual; yea, there is a world that will be condemned, and consequently not predestinated to life, #1Co 11:32.

They that are chosen, are predestinated to the adoption of children, and enjoy both the grace and inheritance of children.

But are all children and heirs? is there not such a distinction among men, as children of God, and children of the devil; between whom there is, and will be, an eternal difference? #1Jo 3:10 and therefore there must be an election, and a non-election among them.

Moreover, whom God has predestinated, or chosen to life and happiness, these he glorifies, #Ro 8:30 they obtain the glory of Christ, which his Father has given him for them, and to which they are chosen and called, #Joh 17:22 2Th 2:13,14.

But are all glorified? do not some go into perdition, even into everlasting punishment? and therefore must be considered as non-elect, #Re 17:8 Mt 25:46.

To all which may be added, that those that are given to Christ, which is but another phrase for being chosen in him; these, he says, shall come to him, and he will in no wise cast them out;

yea, that they are his sheep, whom he must bring to his Father, to himself, to his fold, to grace and glory, #Joh 6:37 10:16.

But are there not some whom Christ will drive away from him, and to then, say, "Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire", #Mt 7:23 25:41.

All this put together most clearly
and fully proves,
that there are some
who are not chosen of God,
but rejected by him."
 
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JD731

Well-Known Member
Where are you getting this from? God's election of grace has always been unconditional of man's acts - but you yourself have said one is born again by receiving the Holy Spirit in faith. How does election remain unconditional if dependent on man's response of faith?
.

1) God's election of grace has always been unconditional of man's acts - Your statement is just not true. Election is an act of God and grace is a principle of God. If anyone reading the context of Romans 11 where this statement is made cannot understand that he is speaking to Israel only here, it is because he is trying to miss it. Grace is not a principle of his act of electing heretofore and here he is designating two different things. 1) This present time, and 2) the remnant of Israel. Who are the remnant of Israel.? It is the few who have believed in Christ and become the "children" of God. How did they become the children of God. They became the children of God by the new birth, that is they received the Spirit, the gift of God.


Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

How does election remain unconditional if dependent on man's response of faith? Faith in what God says is the condition for receiving the Spirit of God and becoming his. The verses above says it. Read this and reason it out in your mind;

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Faith is a principle, not of God, but of man.

You preach another gospel when you define faith as Calvinism defines it. When you say faith is the gift of God and is infused on certain undefined elect, you dishonor God and his ways.

Where are you getting this from?
For the gentiles it is in 2 Thess 2:13-14 and for Israel it is in 1 Peter 1:1-2.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
This is where, "Worshipping God", is lost on His enemies.

PRAISE JESUS, GOD ALMIGHTY that YOU HAVE REVEALED that YOU are a GOD WHO has SHOWN US the Answer to 1) can a chosen man ever ultimately be lost

is, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", Saved to The Uttermost.

and PRAISE JESUS, GOD ALMIGHTY that YOU HAVE REVEALED that YOU are a GOD WHO has SHOWN US the Answer to 2) can an unelected man ever be saved,
is, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", *

Since, THAT IS THE ONLY GOD THERE IS, WE WORSHIP HIM, for WHO HE SAYS HE is AND NOT "WHAT MAN THINKS hE MIGHT BE".

From: His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 3

*"I shall prove that there is a non-election, or rejection of some of the sons of men, when others were chosen; and, indeed, from the election of some, may fairly be inferred, the non-election of others.

Common sense tells us, that of persons or things, if some are chosen, others must be left: if there is a remnant of the sons of men, according to the election of grace, then there are others not included in it, which are left unchosen, and are called the rest.

"The election", that is, elect men, "hath obtained it", righteousness and eternal life; "and the rest were blinded", #Ro 11:5,7.

Our Lord says, "I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen", #Joh 13:18 plainly intimating, that all were not chosen, and it is certain one was not, and whom he calls "the son of perdition"; one, not only deserving of it, but appointed to it; for though chosen to an office, as an apostle, yet not to grace and glory, #Joh 17:12 and how many such there be, no man can pretend to say;

but it is evident there are some, and who are generally described by negative characters; as not known by God and Christ; the elect are God's people, whom he knows; they are elect, according to his foreknowledge;

which carries in it love and affection to them; but of others Christ says, "I never knew you"; he knew them by his omniscience, but not with such knowledge as he knows the elect of God; he never knew them as the objects of his Father's love, and his own; he never knew them as the objects of his Father's choice, and his own; he never knew them in the gift of his Father to him, #Mt 7:23

hence they are represented as "not" loved, which is meant by being hated: "Esau have I hated";

that is, had not loved him, as he had Jacob; for it cannot be understood of positive hatred, for God hates none of his creatures, as such, only as workers of iniquity; but of negative hatred, or of not loving him; which, in comparison of the love he bore to Jacob, might be called hatred: in which sense the word is used in #Lu 14:26.

Moreover, they are spoken of as "not" being given to Christ;

for if there are some that are "given" to him "out of the world", then there must be a world which are not given, and for whom he has not so much concern as even to pray for them, #Joh 17:6,9

they are frequently described, as not having their names written, and not to be found written in the Lamb's book of life, #Re 13:8 17:8 20:15.

Now as election is signified by the writing of names in the book of life, non-election is expressed by not writing the names of some there; and if those whose names are written there, are the elect, then those whose names are not written these, but are left out, must be non-elect: to which may be added, that our Lord says of these persons, "Ye are not of my sheep", and gives this as a reason why they believed not in him, #Joh 10:26.

But the goats he will place on his left hand, pass sentence of condemnation on them, and send them into everlasting punishment, #Mt 25:33,41,46.



Moreover, from the effects of election not having place in some persons, it may be concluded, that there are such who are non-elect.

The effectual calling is a certain fruit and effect of election; "Whom he did predestinate, them he also called", #Ro 8:30

not only externally, but internally, with an holy and heavenly calling, to grace here, and glory hereafter.

But are all called in this manner?

No; there are some who have not so much as the outward call by the ministry of the word, have not the external means of grace; but as they sin without law, perish without it, #Ro 10:14 2:12.

Those who are chosen, are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ;

they are chosen to holiness, and through sanctification of the Spirit.

But are all made like to Christ, and conformed to his image? do not many bear the image of Satan, imitate him, and do his lusts? are all men made holy, or have they the sanctification of the Spirit?

Whom God predestinates he justifies, by the righteousness of his Son.

But are all men justified?

No; for though he justifies some of all sorts and nations; as the circumcised Jews by faith, and the uncircumcised Gentiles through faith, yet not every individual; yea, there is a world that will be condemned, and consequently not predestinated to life, #1Co 11:32.

They that are chosen, are predestinated to the adoption of children, and enjoy both the grace and inheritance of children.

But are all children and heirs? is there not such a distinction among men, as children of God, and children of the devil; between whom there is, and will be, an eternal difference? #1Jo 3:10 and therefore there must be an election, and a non-election among them.

Moreover, whom God has predestinated, or chosen to life and happiness, these he glorifies, #Ro 8:30 they obtain the glory of Christ, which his Father has given him for them, and to which they are chosen and called, #Joh 17:22 2Th 2:13,14.

But are all glorified? do not some go into perdition, even into everlasting punishment? and therefore must be considered as non-elect, #Re 17:8 Mt 25:46.

To all which may be added, that those that are given to Christ, which is but another phrase for being chosen in him; these, he says, shall come to him, and he will in no wise cast them out;

yea, that they are his sheep, whom he must bring to his Father, to himself, to his fold, to grace and glory, #Joh 6:37 10:16.

But are there not some whom Christ will drive away from him, and to then, say, "Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire", #Mt 7:23 25:41.

All this put together most clearly
and fully proves,
that there are some
who are not chosen of God,
but rejected by him."

You are as confused as a termite in a yo-yo. You can't even demonstrate that you have been chosen, though I take it you are claiming to be,. The only confirmation you have is subjective and the only evidence you have to show us is your works. From your words and your arguments I am not believing you are one of the chosen of God. You will have to give me the testimony of God before I will believe it.
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
You are as confused as a termite in a yo-yo. You can't even demonstrate that you have been chosen, though I take it you are claiming to be,. The only confirmation you have is subjective and the only evidence you have to show us is your works. From your words and your arguments I am not believing you are one of the chosen of God. You will have to give me the testimony of God before I will believe it.

Chosen souls who are Saved, "WORSHIP GOD".

This is where, "Worshipping God", is lost on His enemies.

PRAISE JESUS, GOD ALMIGHTY that YOU, GOD, HAVE REVEALED that YOU are a GOD WHO has SHOWN US the Answer to 1) can a chosen man ever ultimately be lost

is, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", Saved to The Uttermost.

and PRAISE JESUS, GOD ALMIGHTY that YOU, GOD, HAVE REVEALED that YOU are a GOD WHO has SHOWN US the Answer to 2) can an unelected man ever be saved,
is, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", *

Since THAT IS THE ONLY GOD THERE IS, WE WORSHIP YOU, GOD ALMIGHTY, for WHO YOU SAYS YOU ARE is AND NOT "WHAT MAN THINKS 'you' MIGHT BE".
 

ivdavid

Active Member
JD731 said
How does God not predestine some men to condemnation if he has predestined some to be saved?


ivdavid said
How does a parent not predestine their guests to be denied any serving of greens if they have predestined their children to be fed greens at their evening dinner?

JD731 said
ivdavid, when does anyone ever use that kind of argument about anything? You have to admit it is a silly comparison.
Is that all your argument against what I'd said? Dismissing it as silly without showing what's silly about the comparison?

You'd asked me to explain in simple words 'how it works' - and I presented an analogy.
Parent = God
Children = elect
Guests = non-elect
Greens = salvation
Dinner = future time of evangelism

Can the parent pre-determine before dinner-time that their children will definitively be fed greens then? Yes/No.
In doing so, are they simultaneously pre-determining that the guests should be denied any offering of greens during dinner-time? Yes/No.

Similarly, God can and does pre-determine before any are born or have done good or evil that His children of Promise will definitively receive salvation through the Gospel.
In doing so, He is not simultaneously pre-determining that the non-elect should be denied any offering of salvation during the preaching of the Gospel.

I merely showed you how I make sense of Single Predestination. This was simply a logical question you'd raised which I responded to. If you find it silly, point out the logical or analogical flaw within this question and answer.

Instead you call it silly and then launch into an argument over how predestination cannot be applied to salvation but only Image-conformation in Rom 8 and Eph 1 - sure, a topic switch but to which I'd simply replace my Greens = Image-conformation and it works just the same. Cannot God have predestined His children of Promise to be conformed to the Image of His Son? What's so grievous about this notion taken independently? Are you so caught up in your own set ways that you're unable to process anything else - even if it might amount to the truth?
 

ivdavid

Active Member
The context of Rom 8 and Ephesians 1 concerning predestination is not to salvation but it is to an image.
An argument can be made from 1Pet 1:3-5 that salvation is the actual conformation to the image of Christ which is to be revealed in the end and what we have now is the birthing again by God unto such salvation in living hope of such inheritance.

But even if you wish me to distinguish them by considering salvation as the receiving of the Holy Spirit right now and the conforming to Christ's Image as the future event, why must that alter my views on predestination? I've expanded more on this below.

That image cannot be achieved while one lives in our weak bodies on the earth even when we are saved.
Inheritance is all over the page of Rom 8 and Eph 1.
Many times in the scriptures when you see this word 'glory" in any of it's forms, you are looking to a future event.
If God has something for us in the future that will be a completion of the whole, he might call what he has given already, a down payment, or "an earnest.." What has he given already to make us sons of God. In Rom 8 he has given his Spirit to indwell us, but our bodies are not glorified like the body of Jesus. So, what would be the earnest. The Spirit of course.
What did Paul say in Rom 8 the redemption of the purchase possession is? He said it was the redemption of the body.
That's the bulk of your post that you've presented as an argument against what I believe - but have you checked with me first if I do disagree on any of these statements? Glorification is in the future - it is an inheritance which we have not yet received. Who has actually argued against this?

What is your line of argument here again - that we've been predestined to this future inheritance and therefore we have not been predestined to anything prior to that? Are you looking for just the word 'predestined' - you do realize it's just a generic word to denote "deciding beforehand", right? Am I incorrect in say looking at Gen 15:13-14 and holding that God 'predestined' Israel to be saved from Egypt though the word itself is not used in the passage?

Now, I'm a little tired of rehashing arguments from an earlier thread, so if you've been following the earlier discussion on what "Adoption" means, we could save some time there. Else, I'll spend some time later and provide links to that thread. I hold "adoption" to be the act of making one who isn't your son/child to begin with, as your own son/child now. What do you define "adoption" as seen from Scriptures? Consequently, I hold that we have already received the adoption since we are already sons/children of God in Christ - do you believe that adoption itself is a future event that we are still to wait for?
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
This is where, "Worshipping God", is lost on His enemies.

PRAISE JESUS, GOD ALMIGHTY that YOU HAVE REVEALED that YOU are a GOD WHO has SHOWN US the Answer to 1) can a chosen man ever ultimately be lost

is, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", Saved to The Uttermost.

and PRAISE JESUS, GOD ALMIGHTY that YOU HAVE REVEALED that YOU are a GOD WHO has SHOWN US the Answer to 2) can an unelected man ever be saved,
is, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", *

Since, THAT IS THE ONLY GOD THERE IS, WE WORSHIP HIM, for WHO HE SAYS HE is AND NOT "WHAT MAN THINKS hE MIGHT BE".

From: His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 3

*"I shall prove that there is a non-election, or rejection of some of the sons of men, when others were chosen; and, indeed, from the election of some, may fairly be inferred, the non-election of others.

Common sense tells us, that of persons or things, if some are chosen, others must be left: if there is a remnant of the sons of men, according to the election of grace, then there are others not included in it, which are left unchosen, and are called the rest.

"The election", that is, elect men, "hath obtained it", righteousness and eternal life; "and the rest were blinded", #Ro 11:5,7.

Our Lord says, "I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen", #Joh 13:18 plainly intimating, that all were not chosen, and it is certain one was not, and whom he calls "the son of perdition"; one, not only deserving of it, but appointed to it; for though chosen to an office, as an apostle, yet not to grace and glory, #Joh 17:12 and how many such there be, no man can pretend to say;

but it is evident there are some, and who are generally described by negative characters; as not known by God and Christ; the elect are God's people, whom he knows; they are elect, according to his foreknowledge;

which carries in it love and affection to them; but of others Christ says, "I never knew you"; he knew them by his omniscience, but not with such knowledge as he knows the elect of God; he never knew them as the objects of his Father's love, and his own; he never knew them as the objects of his Father's choice, and his own; he never knew them in the gift of his Father to him, #Mt 7:23

hence they are represented as "not" loved, which is meant by being hated: "Esau have I hated";

that is, had not loved him, as he had Jacob; for it cannot be understood of positive hatred, for God hates none of his creatures, as such, only as workers of iniquity; but of negative hatred, or of not loving him; which, in comparison of the love he bore to Jacob, might be called hatred: in which sense the word is used in #Lu 14:26.

Moreover, they are spoken of as "not" being given to Christ;

for if there are some that are "given" to him "out of the world", then there must be a world which are not given, and for whom he has not so much concern as even to pray for them, #Joh 17:6,9

they are frequently described, as not having their names written, and not to be found written in the Lamb's book of life, #Re 13:8 17:8 20:15.

Now as election is signified by the writing of names in the book of life, non-election is expressed by not writing the names of some there; and if those whose names are written there, are the elect, then those whose names are not written these, but are left out, must be non-elect: to which may be added, that our Lord says of these persons, "Ye are not of my sheep", and gives this as a reason why they believed not in him, #Joh 10:26.

But the goats he will place on his left hand, pass sentence of condemnation on them, and send them into everlasting punishment, #Mt 25:33,41,46.



Moreover, from the effects of election not having place in some persons, it may be concluded, that there are such who are non-elect.

The effectual calling is a certain fruit and effect of election; "Whom he did predestinate, them he also called", #Ro 8:30

not only externally, but internally, with an holy and heavenly calling, to grace here, and glory hereafter.

But are all called in this manner?

No; there are some who have not so much as the outward call by the ministry of the word, have not the external means of grace; but as they sin without law, perish without it, #Ro 10:14 2:12.

Those who are chosen, are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ;

they are chosen to holiness, and through sanctification of the Spirit.

But are all made like to Christ, and conformed to his image? do not many bear the image of Satan, imitate him, and do his lusts? are all men made holy, or have they the sanctification of the Spirit?

Whom God predestinates he justifies, by the righteousness of his Son.

But are all men justified?

No; for though he justifies some of all sorts and nations; as the circumcised Jews by faith, and the uncircumcised Gentiles through faith, yet not every individual; yea, there is a world that will be condemned, and consequently not predestinated to life, #1Co 11:32.

They that are chosen, are predestinated to the adoption of children, and enjoy both the grace and inheritance of children.

But are all children and heirs? is there not such a distinction among men, as children of God, and children of the devil; between whom there is, and will be, an eternal difference? #1Jo 3:10 and therefore there must be an election, and a non-election among them.

Moreover, whom God has predestinated, or chosen to life and happiness, these he glorifies, #Ro 8:30 they obtain the glory of Christ, which his Father has given him for them, and to which they are chosen and called, #Joh 17:22 2Th 2:13,14.

But are all glorified? do not some go into perdition, even into everlasting punishment? and therefore must be considered as non-elect, #Re 17:8 Mt 25:46.

To all which may be added, that those that are given to Christ, which is but another phrase for being chosen in him; these, he says, shall come to him, and he will in no wise cast them out;

yea, that they are his sheep, whom he must bring to his Father, to himself, to his fold, to grace and glory, #Joh 6:37 10:16.

But are there not some whom Christ will drive away from him, and to then, say, "Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire", #Mt 7:23 25:41.

All this put together most clearly
and fully proves,
that there are some
who are not chosen of God,
but rejected by him."

The parts of this decree, concerning the rejection of men, are commonly said to be preterition and pre-damnation.

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 3

2b1. Preterition is God's passing by some men, when he chose others: and in this act, or part of the decree, men are considered as in the pure mass of creatureship, or creability;

in which state they are found when passed by or rejected, and in which they are left, even just as they are found, nothing put into them; but were left in the pure mass, as they lay, and so no injury is done them;

nor is God to be charged with any injustice towards them: in this act sin comes not into consideration, as it does in a following one;

for in this men are considered as not created, and so not fallen; but as unborn, and having done neither good nor evil, #Ro 9:11.

And this is a pure act of sovereignty in God, and to his sovereign will it is to be ascribed; who has the same sovereign power, and greater, than the potter has over his clay, to make one vessel to honor, and another to dishonor, #Ro 9:19,20,22.

This being expressed, as before observed, by negative phrases, is, by some, called negative reprobation.
 

ivdavid

Active Member
This is terribly confusing. I doubt any reader on this board understands your position or agrees with it. Do you know of anyone anywhere who agrees with you?
Would that make a difference to your believing these premises? :)

Every Lutheran agrees with me - since Single Predestination is not a new doctrine as such. I just happen to be on a forum for calvinists and arminians attempting to reconcile them on a lutheran doctrine while not being any of these denominations wholly.
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member

2b2. Pre-damnation is God's appointment, or preordination of men to condemnation for sin; and is what is spoken of in #Jude 1:4.

"There are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation";

and who are described by the following characters,

"ungodly men, turning the grace of God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and, or even our Lord Jesus Christ";

which, when observed, is sufficient to clear this decree of God from the charge of cruelty and injustice: and this, by some, is called, positive reprobation.

The word krima, translated "condemnation", in the above quoted text, some render "judgment", and interpret it of judicial blindness and hardness of heart; which appeared in the persons embracing and spreading false and pernicious doctrines spoken of;

and this is, indeed, what they are foreordained, or appointed to, as a punishment of former sins; for this hardness, &c. presupposes former sins, and an obstinately continued course in them;

either against the light and law of nature, which they like not to walk according to, and therefore God gives them up, pursuant to his decree, to a reprobate mind, to do things not convenient, #Ro 1:24,28

or against divine revelation, precepts, counsels, and admonitions, like Israel of old, hearkening not to the voice of the Lord, in his word, nor paying any regard to his instructions; and therefore he gives them up, as he determined to do, to their own hearts' lusts, and to walk in their own counsels, #Ps 81:11,12

and this is the sense of the word in #Joh 9:39.

God hardens some mens' hearts, as he did Pharaoh's, and he wills to harden them, or he hardens them according to his decreeing will; "Whom he will he hardeneth", #Ro 9:18

this he does not by any positive act, by infusing hardness and blindness into the hearts of men;

which is contrary to his purity and holiness, and would make him the author of sin;

but by leaving men to their natural blindness and hardness of heart;

for the understanding is naturally darkened;

and there is a natural blindness, hardness, and callousness of heart, through the corruption of nature, and which is increased by habits of sinning; men are in darkness, and choose to walk in it;

and therefore God, as he decreed, gives them up to their own wills and desires, and to Satan, the god of the world, they choose to follow and to be led captive by, who blinds their minds yet more and more, lest the light should break in unto them, #Eph 4:18 #Ps 82:5 2Co 4:4

and also God may be said to harden and blind, by denying them that grace which can only cure them of their hardness and blindness, and which he, of his free favor, gives to his chosen ones, #Eze 36:26,27

but is not obliged to give it to any;

and because he gives it not, he is said to hide, as he determined to hide, the things of his grace from the wise and prudent, even because it so seemed good in his sight, #Mt 11:25,26.
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
2b2. Pre-damnation is God's appointment, or preordination of men to condemnation for sin; and is what is spoken of in #Jude 1:4.

.

Just called it, "Damned", or "Damnation".

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 3

Hence this blindness, hardness, insensibility, and stupidity, are represented as following upon non-election;

not as the immediate effect of it, but as consequences of it;

and such as neither judgments nor mercies can remove;

and bring persons to a right sense of sin, and repentance for it, #Ro 11:7-10.

The sin and fall of Adam having brought him into a state of infidelity, in which God has concluded him: and he does not think fit to give to every man that grace which can only cure him of his unbelief, and without which, and unless almighty power and grace go along with the means they have, they cannot believe; whereby the decrees, predictions, and declarations of God are fulfilled in them, #Joh 12:37-40

yea, as Christ is said to be set, or appointed, "for the fall of many in Israel", #Lu 2:34 so many are appointed to stumble at the Word, at him, the Stone of stumbling, and Rock of offence, being children of disobedience, and left as such;

when, to those who are a chosen generation, he is a precious cornerstone, and they believe in him, and are saved by him, #1Pe 2:7-9

hence we read of some, who, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved, to them are sent by God strong delusions, and they are given up to believe a lie, that they might be damned;

not that God infuses any delusion or deceit into them, but because of their disbelief of, and disrespect to him and his Word, he suffers their corruptions to break forth and prevail, not giving restraining grace to them;

so that they become a prey to them that lie in wait to deceive; and being easy and credulous, they believe lies spoken in hypocrisy;

which issue in their damnation; while others, beloved of the Lord, and chosen from the beginning to salvation, obtain the glory of Christ, #2Th 2:10-14.

But though all this is a most certain truth, and is contained in the decree we are speaking of, yet condemnation, or everlasting punishment, seems to be meant in the passage quoted; or, however, this is what some men are foreordained unto.
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Just called it, "Damned", or "Damnation".

"God made man neither to damn nor save him;

"but he made him for his own glory, and he will be glorified in him,

n one way or another:"

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 3

But though all this is a most certain truth, and is contained in the decree we are speaking of, yet condemnation, or everlasting punishment, seems to be meant in the passage quoted; or, however, this is what some men are foreordained unto.

Some will have it, that this refers to something forewritten, as they choose to render the word; to some prophecy concerning the condemnation of those persons, and particularly to that of Enoch, #Jude 1:14,15

but it is not certain that prophecy was ever written;

besides, a prophecy, or prediction, of anything future, is founded upon an antecedent predetermination and appointment;

God foretells by his prophets what will be, because he has determined it shall be;

if, therefore, the condemnation of those persons was foretold in any written prophecy, it was because God had decreed it should come upon them, or they be brought into it.

It seems to have the same sense with God's appointing men unto wrath; which, though not in so many words expressed, is manifestly implied; as when the apostle says,

"God hath not appointed us to wrath"
,

who yet were children of wrath, and deserving of it as others;

"but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ":

it suggests, that though he had not appointed them, yet he had appointed others to wrath, and who are therefore called

"vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction",

by their own sins and transgressions, #1Th 5:9 Ro 9:22.

With which agrees what is said of some wicked men, who are "reserved" in the purposes and decrees of God, "to the day of destruction";

in consequence of which, "they shall be brought to the day of wrath", which God has appointed for the execution of his wrath;

and hence the casting of the fury of his wrath, in all the dreadful instances of it, is called "the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed; unto him of God", #Job 21:30 20:23-29

and this is the sense of #Pr 16:4

for the meaning of the text is not, nor is it our sense of it, as some misrepresent it, as if God made man to damn him;

we say no such thing, nor does the text;

our sentiment is, that God made man neither to damn nor save him;

but he made him for his own glory, and he will be glorified in him, in one way or another: nor that he made man wicked, in order to damn him;

for God made man upright;

men made themselves wicked by their own inventions;

which are the cause of damnation: but the true sense of the passage is, that

"the Lord hath made", that is, has appointed "all things for himself", for his own glory: and should it be objected, that the wicked could not be for his glory, it is added,

"Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil";

that is, he has appointed the wicked for the day of evil,
to suffer justly for their sins, to the illustration of the glory of his justice.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Is that all your argument against what I'd said? Dismissing it as silly without showing what's silly about the comparison?

You'd asked me to explain in simple words 'how it works' - and I presented an analogy.
Parent = God
Children = elect
Guests = non-elect
Greens = salvation
Dinner = future time of evangelism



Lets just call this fanciful, ivdavid, if you do not like the word silly. God speaks in similitudes, so says the scriptures. Why not use his, which are different than yours. The very people who God says are elect are the ones who he says do not believe. I will prove it from the scriptures but you will not believe it. You will make excuses and you will seek to justify your theological position that is a product of your own mind. But here it is anyways. Consider it;


Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
The context of Isa 45 demands that Israel be considered in a corporate identity.

Israel corporately was considered the son of God, but one born of the flesh. The son of Jacob. Do you see Jacob's name in verse 45? Jacob produced Israel.

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt

How many of Jacob's offspring left Egypt? Answer, all of them. The first Passover was the birthday of the physical nation of Israel. Has this son been born again? Answer; NO! Will this son ever be saved by the blood of the Lamb? (God's analogy) YES! When will all Israel be saved? Are we told? Yes!

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

God says all Israel will be saved when Jesus Christ comes out of Zion. You may disagree with V 26 but you will have to admit that I am quoting it accurately. This must mean that God is dealing with one people group that is divided into two different groups at two different time frames. Earlier in the chapter Paul said there was a remnant of Israel at "this present time" who believed and were born again but though they were of the lineage of Abraham through Jacob, they were called "sons of God" and not Israel. He labeled them as "the remnant according to the election of grace." The difference between these two groups of Israelites was that the remnant according to the election of grace had believed in Jesus Christ and been saved already and the far larger group had not believed in Jesus Christ and would not be saved corporately in this present time, but after the return of Jesus Christ to Jerusalem. Whatever time you assign to this period, it would make no sense whatsoever to assign it to "this present time." Considering that this time period is defined in Ep 3 by this Bible author, Paul, as the dispensation of the grace of God, it would not make any sense to believe that the future salvation of Israel corporately as one is of grace. The principle is not of grace but is of promise. God covenanted with them to save them this way. Salvation in this period of time includes the gentiles on the same level as the remnant of Israel and since gentiles cannot claim any salvation promise of God from time past, the principle of our salvation is grace. Therefore, since Israel is not being saved now because of their unbelief, God is creating a "new man," a corporate entity, called the body and bride of Christ from believers from both people groups, Israel and gentiles, in this present age. He has outlined new promises for this entity through the pen of the apostle Paul, who has revealed the foundation and the heavenly destiny of this new man that is different and separate from anything that has been revealed before this. Those few Israelites ,who are saved in this present age, and the individual gentiles who are saved are as ground wheat in two loaves put together in one body. This is the feast of Pentecost (Fifty) that was observed by Israel for 1500 years before the coming of Christ. The two loaves, made into meal, that contains leaven, that are presented as wave offerings to the Lord, represent Jews and gentiles. You may read about these things in the feasts of Israel and understand they are prophetic in nature but not understandable until the fulfillment. Pentecost is also one of the three festivals of Israel.

If you or anyone else cannot believe the words of the scriptures and make proper contexual divisions then there is no hope of understanding the scriptures.

Can the parent pre-determine before dinner-time that their children will definitively be fed greens then? Yes/No.
In doing so, are they simultaneously pre-determining that the guests should be denied any offering of greens during dinner-time? Yes/No.

Similarly, God can and does pre-determine before any are born or have done good or evil that His children of Promise will definitively receive salvation through the Gospel.
In doing so, He is not simultaneously pre-determining that the non-elect should be denied any offering of salvation during the preaching of the Gospel.

I merely showed you how I make sense of Single Predestination. This was simply a logical question you'd raised which I responded to. If you find it silly, point out the logical or analogical flaw within this question and answer.

Instead you call it silly and then launch into an argument over how predestination cannot be applied to salvation but only Image-conformation in Rom 8 and Eph 1 - sure, a topic switch but to which I'd simply replace my Greens = Image-conformation and it works just the same. Cannot God have predestined His children of Promise to be conformed to the Image of His Son? What's so grievous about this notion taken independently? Are you so caught up in your own set ways that you're unable to process anything else - even if it might amount to the truth?

God does not even choose who will be born physically. This is left to natural laws. Have you ever heard of the natural man? It is one who has been generated by the sexual union of two people. These births can be, and often are, controlled through natural or artificial means. Most people nowadays have used birth control. This would certainly change who God would save if your theology is correct. God chooses to save any and all who believes his word and elects all who are saved. This is clearly taught in the scripture. All three persons of the Godhead are involved in our salvation, but not in the same function. In Romans 8, for instance, we have the Spirit quickening the believer by his indwelling him. We have the Father as the judge who justifies the believer in Jesus, and we have the Son of God who died for sinners and rose again. Look!

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

This is repeated over and over in scripture. Look at 1 Cor 12 and see if you see it.

Meanwhile God chooses whomsoever the Spirit quickens;

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I wish you would read the words that are written and believe them rather than infuse your own theology on them. God chose "from the beginning" not before the beginning. The beginning is the church.

Thank you for considering this post. This information is given to help you. May God be glorified in it.
 
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Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
Double speak?

I made the statement in another post that Reformed do not need the OT. Four thousand years of human history passed before Jesus Christ died, was buried, and rose again from the dead. Not a single one of them submitted to the Lord Jesus Christ. They did not even know his name. Yet the scriptures says they were saved by him if they were saved at all. On what basis then were they saved? Does the scriptures say? Yes, the scriptures goes into great detail in explaining it but it is by a principle that all Reformed deny. It is the principle of faith. But it is not just the principle of faith. I can believe a lot of things and still not be saved. So then, the principle is of faith in what God says to us. Abraham, Noah, and David were all justified men because the Judge of all the earth, Jehovah, justified them when they believed what he said to them. justified men can never be lost but the blood of Jesus Christ can wash away their sins. This is why OT saints who were justified went to paradise in the center of the earth until the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ to sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat in heaven that they were taken to the presence of God. See Gal 4 where captivity is led captive.

Here is two NT witnesses to what I am saying here;

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Propitiation for sins that are past.= OT, those who were justified by their faith
Righteousness (identified in other passages as the Spirit of Christ) at this time immediately for those who believe in Jesus.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Justification comes by faith in what God says to you. Faith is the only principle through which God justifies. Who would have ever thought that a religion could persuade a multitude that men do not have the capacity to believe? All God asked of the nations in the OT is that they believe on what nature taught them about God. He said sin is the transgression of the law and where there is no law there is no transgression. See Psa 19 here.

Jesus Christ is the light (understanding) of the world now and he lighteth every man who comes into the world, he says in Jn 1 and therefore we have this command;

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Jn 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

We are talking about a wonderful and kind and able God who will save every one who will come to him by faith. That is all it takes to be saved. Please do not teach that man cannot believe in Jesus Christ.
Amen!!!
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
If you or anyone else cannot believe the words of the scriptures and make proper contexual divisions then there is no hope of understanding the scriptures.



God does not even choose who will be born physically. This is left to natural laws. Have you ever heard of the natural man? It is one who has been generated by the sexual union of two people. These births can be, and often are, controlled through natural or artificial means. Most people nowadays have used birth control. This would certainly change who God would save if your theology is correct. God chooses to save any and all who believes his word and elects all who are saved. This is clearly taught in the scripture. All three persons of the Godhead are involved in our salvation, but not in the same function. In Romans 8, for instance, we have the Spirit quickening the believer by his indwelling him. We have the Father as the judge who justifies the believer in Jesus, and we have the Son of God who died for sinners and rose again. Look!

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

This is repeated over and over in scripture. Look at 1 Cor 12 and see if you see it.

Meanwhile God chooses whomsoever the Spirit quickens;

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I wish you would read the words that are written and believe them rather than infuse your own theology on them. God chose "from the beginning" not before the beginning. The beginning is the church.

Thank you for considering this post. This information is given to help you. May God be glorified in it.


2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord,

because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


The topic in the verses is Salvation / sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: / he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

and not related to when God chooses.

"God chooses whomsoever the Spirit quickens;" is an error.
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
(Is there a distinction between the two questions - they look the same to me.)
I consider myself somewhat a reformed evangelist (I do not agree with the reformed doctrine of predestined reprobation/condemnation) and I would ask you to make your question less ambiguous - are you posing this as a hypothetical question as to what God has designed or are you posing this as a question on reality as to what would actually happen in the end?
To the former, I answer, yes - there is a scenario in which the sinner who was not chosen can be saved and that is in him believing in Christ alone and enduring in such faith to the end. To the latter, I answer, no - in reality, none who are not chosen will themselves choose to continue in the faith to the end, if having begun in the first place.


Interesting assumption. I suppose the doctrine of election is misunderstood even more than commonly thought. To your question, I answer, I do not know with certainty into the future as to whether I will continue believing I'm elect or assuredly saved. But in this very moment, I know with certainty what God has spoken in Holy Scriptures and I believe His promises to work out righteousness in me apart from my own works of self/flesh if I call on Him and I see it evidenced with an increasing conviction of my own sin pruning away into an increasing inclination and affinity to holiness, patience, compassion and love whereby I am convinced that as of this moment I am elect and saved predicated on the only basis that whoever puts his faith in Him shall not be ashamed but receive the sure mercies of David unto walking in foreordained good works.

However, if you ask me now whether I'd be equally certain say five years from now, I'd ask you to come back and ask me five years later - and if I have still more increased in these evidences of God working in me and if I have continued stronger in the faith, then my answer then will again be a certainty of being elect and saved. But if I have walked away from the faith then it is proof that I was never elect no matter what my inclinations were along the way. Therefore I run with certainty lest I be a castaway, yet not I that labor, but the grace of God in me. And when I finish the race, my testimony will be for all to see - if I have kept the faith to the end or not. Biblical assurance of salvation is given to all in each moment predicated on faith alone in Christ alone extending into the future, but never as a future divination itself of your state independent of faith.

I have elaborated my own response, but to summarize the theological conclusions, election is to be studied more to glorify God's plans and His ways rather than to use that as the object of our faith. I see the glory of God in His sovereign election and His power in not losing one of whom He has purposed to save - I do not likewise put my faith in this doctrine of election to be saved myself, but only in Christ who saves. My current hope of certainty for the end is that my knowledge in part shall meet His knowledge in full and I will fulfill His purpose in sovereign election by being saved through faith in Christ alone.

And that's why it still makes sense to have reformed evangelists around - for they add to the Gospel of faith, the sovereignty of God - never one to the exclusion of the other.
Then essentially Calvinsm really is a works based religion.
 
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