Irressistible Grace #2

[atpollard]

Where does GOD say Gentiles are elect?

Romans 11:17

 

[Barry Johnson]

Maybe, The Lord Will Show you, some day.

Its our Job to study.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Here are the “elect” ...

• [Mat 24:22, 24, 31 NASB] 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. ...
• 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. ...
  31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
  
  
• [Mar 13:20, 22, 27 NASB] 20 "Unless the Lord had shortened [those] days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. ...
  
• 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect. ...
  
• 27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

• [Luk 18:7 NASB] 7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
  
  
• [Rom 8:33 NASB] 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

What might even suggest to anyone that the “elect” include the unsaved enemies of God?

It of course includes both unbelieving Israel and believers in Christ . But ' election is not ABOUT being saved . Its about service , purpose and calling . Never, not once , not even slightly about ' Chosen to be saved ' . This is gnostic concepts brought into christianity from Augustine ,who was a manachian gnostic prior to his Christian profession. A great study on this is by Dr Ken Wilson ' https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/108280035X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_btf_t1_COhLFbWHZP0RK

 

[MB]

Romans 11:17

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
We are a wild olive tree grafted in among them. I know you believe this makes you elect but the scripture never says that you are now elect. In real life the graft never looses it's own identity Grafts are always grafts and cannot produce a different fruit just because it is grafted to another root. I've seen trees on the internet with multiple kinds of fruit bearing on the same tree. You can look it up and see for your self.
MB

 

[atpollard]

It of course includes both unbelieving Israel and believers in Christ . But ' election is not ABOUT being saved . Its about service , purpose and calling . Never, not once , not even slightly about ' Chosen to be saved ' . This is gnostic concepts brought into christianity from Augustine ,who was a manachian gnostic prior to his Christian profession. A great study on this is by Dr Ken Wilson ' https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/108280035X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_btf_t1_COhLFbWHZP0RK

If you had bothered to read the question that I was answering, and the scripture with which I had answered the question that was being asked ... you would not have wasted both of our time responding with this non sequitur.

Since you do not read what is written, there is little point in bothering to post a scriptural response that you will simply use as another opportunity to “speak without listening” and refute points that I am not making.

Enjoy your blogging.

 

[atpollard]

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
We are a wild olive tree grafted in among them. I know you believe this makes you elect but the scripture never says that you are now elect. In real life the graft never looses it's own identity Grafts are always grafts and cannot produce a different fruit just because it is grafted to another root. I've seen trees on the internet with multiple kinds of fruit bearing on the same tree. You can look it up and see for your self.
MB

Feel free to continue to bare bad fruit even grafted into the True Vine if you think that you can, but I believe that being grafted into the True Vine makes me a new creature in Christ and as Romans 11 goes on to explain a true child of Abraham.

I think you are the one fighting against scripture to make it say what your theology wants it to say ... but that is your right and only God can illuminate TRUTH for either of us. So I disagree with your opinion, but will fight to defend your right to believe it ... just don’t expect me to agree.

Shalom (peace and well being).

 

[Barry Johnson]

If you had bothered to read the question that I was answering, and the scripture with which I had answered the question that was being asked ... you would not have wasted both of our time responding with this non sequitur.

Since you do not read what is written, there is little point in bothering to post a scriptural response that you will simply use as another opportunity to “speak without listening” and refute points that I am not making.

Enjoy your blogging.

# 98 answered you well anyway.

 

[MB]

To the illiterate, the interpretation of, "Immanuel", is given in Matthew 1, because they think a Bible Book was Written only to Jews.

Otherwise, why give the interpretation?

Here is your problem you have not shown sufficient evidence that you are elect no matter what you believe. Un less you can where God elected you it's hog wash.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

Here is your problem you have not shown sufficient evidence that you are elect no matter what you believe. Un less you can where God elected you it's hog wash.
MB

I don't remember anything about that.

 

[Sai]

I thought this discussion needs to continue for a while.



Indeed! The foundation for the Christian faith is different for us. Jesus Christ came to save you because he had no choice. He came to save the rest of us because we have no hope. That is the long and short of it.



Let's look at the context and let the words mean what they say. The gentiles were included in the stated purpose of God in this age because of the unbelief of Israel. This is what is clearly said. This chapter does not address God's dealing with gentiles in the age to come, but in this age as it pertains to his purpose. He says the same things in other places in the scriptures. Here, for instance.

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles (in Acts 10), to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

The age to come:

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] God [is] with you.





I am saying no more and no less than the text says. Words have meaning. God began to explain the history of Acts 1 through Acts 18, which was AD 30 through AD 58. That was the year Romans was written. He did this in Rom 7:1 through Rom 11:36. He wrote it in the context of the mystery of the partial blindness of Israel. Mystery is the characteristic of this age. Jesus Christ outlined this age in Matt with 12 mysteries. Paul describes the church with 7 mysteries. This is not the final age of human history in time. It is the time in history when God is forming the bride of his son from his wounded side after the pattern of Adam and Eve. All NT mysteries have been hidden in the OT types and can be seen only as they are revealed in history and by the Spirit who enlightens the mind. That is just the way of God to do it that way. The problem with men who teach your theology is that they do not even need the OT. Your doctrines can be taught without it but mine cannot.




It is not teaching a principle, it is giving a prophecy based on the previously stated precedent. Israel had an opportunity and because they did not believe, it became the opportunity for the gentiles. Now, the gentiles do not believe and it becomes the opportunity for Israel. God can and will complete his purposes in spite of the unbelief of men and the opposition of devils.

What a delightful brittle thread.
How many times are Christians referred to in the scriptures as “the elect”?


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Scott Downey]

What a delightful brittle thread.
How many times are Christians referred to in the scriptures as “the elect”?


Joy unspeakable full of glory

And elect means chosen of God for salvation
Those who are with Christ are spoken of like this
Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

 

[Barry Johnson]

And elect means chosen of God for salvation
Those who are with Christ are spoken of like this
Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Elect = service and purpose . Never ' to be saved '

 

[atpollard]

Elect = service and purpose . Never ' to be saved '

That is your myth. What scripture states is:

What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Romans 8:31-39 NASB]
​

Sure looks to me like the “elect” are “saved”.

 

[Barry Johnson]

That is your myth. What scripture states is:

What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Romans 8:31-39 NASB]
​

Sure looks to me like the “elect” are “saved”.

It just so happens that most often the elect ' are saved.

 

[MB]

And elect means chosen of God for salvation
Those who are with Christ are spoken of like this
Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

I do not deny scripture the passages says what it clearly says. At the same time the word chosen is used in the verse not the word elect The elect are Jews the chosen is for a whole different set of circumstances you obviously do not understand. This is why both terms are different in meaning. Besides God never even once called a Gentile elect in scripture.
MB

 

[MB]

Feel free to continue to bare bad fruit even grafted into the True Vine if you think that you can, but I believe that being grafted into the True Vine makes me a new creature in Christ and as Romans 11 goes on to explain a true child of Abraham.

I think you are the one fighting against scripture to make it say what your theology wants it to say ... but that is your right and only God can illuminate TRUTH for either of us. So I disagree with your opinion, but will fight to defend your right to believe it ... just don’t expect me to agree.

Shalom (peace and well being).

Try looking in the mirror on the bad fruit thing.
MB

 

[utilyan]

That is your myth. What scripture states is:

What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Romans 8:31-39 NASB]
​

Sure looks to me like the “elect” are “saved”.

Its precisely talking about those who are saved. You can even scribble "God's saved". That doesn't mean every time you see the word "elect" it means "chosen on to salvation" that is Chosen to BE saved.

I can find you a passage where it it means "chosen on to salvation" the point is it not here and its not EVERY TIME.

You can be chosen and elect to scoop horse droppings.

This word "chosen" has been over-embellished as some magic word just as other words like Faith and Prayer, just because you only commonly hear them in church.

My elect bottle of water is not a bottle of water assumed to be chosen to be saved in heaven.


That word choose means elect and its simple as that. We are speaking English. The meaning is what it is no matter how much vocabulary gymnastics you do.

If God CHOOSES, picks, elects, someone to go to hell. Tada they are ELECT, Elect and chosen to go to hell.

In Calvinism that WORD has been drilled to trigger ONE MEANING above all, that is YOUR FLAW.


ITs like if you were drilled as a child to believe every time they mention "TRIBULATION" OH thats the magical winged holy donkey! You see the meanings were BUILT outside of the scriptures

Every time the word shows up "tribulation" OH you see the magical holy donkey will hee-haw see look it says TRIBULATION will come.

That is why every time scriptures mentions chosen or ELECT we ask CHOSEN for what? Elect for WHAT?

 

[Scott Downey]

Its precisely talking about those who are saved. You can even scribble "God's saved". That doesn't mean every time you see the word "elect" it means "chosen on to salvation" that is Chosen to BE saved.

I can find you a passage where it it means "chosen on to salvation" the point is it not here and its not EVERY TIME.

You can be chosen and elect to scoop horse droppings.

This word "chosen" has been over-embellished as some magic word just as other words like Faith and Prayer, just because you only commonly hear them in church.

My elect bottle of water is not a bottle of water assumed to be chosen to be saved in heaven.


That word choose means elect and its simple as that. We are speaking English. The meaning is what it is no matter how much vocabulary gymnastics you do.

If God CHOOSES, picks, elects, someone to go to hell. Tada they are ELECT, Elect and chosen to go to hell.

In Calvinism that WORD has been drilled to trigger ONE MEANING above all, that is YOUR FLAW.


ITs like if you were drilled as a child to believe every time they mention "TRIBULATION" OH thats the magical winged holy donkey! You see the meanings were BUILT outside of the scriptures

Every time the word shows up "tribulation" OH you see the magical holy donkey will hee-haw see look it says TRIBULATION will come.

That is why every time scriptures mentions chosen or ELECT we ask CHOSEN for what? Elect for WHAT?

good opening for 2 Thessalonians 2 then, referring to the tribulation of the wicked versus the elect whom God has chosen for salvation. That is what the wicked do, they do not receive the love of the truth. Only those God has chosen for salvation believe the truth. So God sends delusions on the wicked to make them believe the LIE to bring about their complete destruction. They will die without mercy.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

 

[Dave G]

Romans 11:17

Also 1 Thessalonians 1:4;
In Romans 11:13 Paul is speaking to Gentile believers, and he had just told them in Romans 8:31-34 ( "us", so the ones being spoken to in the letter are the same "us" in chapter 1 as they are in chapter 8 and chapter 11 )...

" What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. "

Add in :
Luke 18:6
Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ( "ordained" = "appointed" = "chosen" = "elected" )
Colossians 1:1-27 ( Gentiles ).
Matthew 24:22.
Mark 13:22.
and many more.

Lastly, we know that Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, while Peter was the apostle to the Jews ( Galatians 1:15-16, Galatians 2:9, Acts of the Apostles 22:21, Romans 15:18-19 ).

 

[utilyan]

good opening for 2 Thessalonians 2 then, referring to the tribulation of the wicked versus the elect whom God has chosen for salvation. That is what the wicked do, they do not receive the love of the truth. Only those God has chosen for salvation believe the truth. So God sends delusions on the wicked to make them believe the LIE to bring about their complete destruction. They will die without mercy.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

"So God sends delusions on the wicked to make them believe the LIE to bring about their complete destruction. They will die without mercy."

Why? From the Calvinist perspective Why would God have to Blindfold a Dead Man? If God has to use delusion are they not capable? If you are totally incapable of believing the truth why would delusion be necessary?

No. We read clearly why. The delusion is a punishment ON the one capable. "because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

They did not love the truth. What is the TRUTH? ---->THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. The sanctification comes in the truth--->through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.


This again points that THE TRUTH was meant to SAVE THEM and God had their salvation in mind.

What is the LIE? Look at it. --->they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

That is a heavy implication that it was offered. That is a heavy implication that "THEY MIGHT BE SAVED" Is what they chose not to believe.