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Is 1 John 2:2 Really a defence of Universal Atonement?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jne1611, Sep 25, 2006.

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  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Before the fall. Now when did Jesus stand as a slain Lamb before the fall or after the fall?
    And I don't have no one to follow me thinking the same.

    hint Rev. 13:8
     
    #101 Brother Bob, Sep 26, 2006
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  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    And what was said of man after the fall?

    Hint...one place you will find this is in Romans 3

    :cool: :cool: :cool:
     
    #102 Jarthur001, Sep 26, 2006
  3. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    It would be very hard to maintain this idea after the curse. Especially considering the flood.
     
    #103 jne1611, Sep 26, 2006
  4. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    He was DECREED to be the slain Lamb before the world was made.

    He became the slain Lamb at the cross.

    Before the cross he was the perfect unblemished Lamb

    After the cross He had the scars in His hands and feet.

    You see..God does work in time when it comes to man. :)
     
    #104 Jarthur001, Sep 26, 2006
  5. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    What does that matter if two people agree? So you believe that the fact that Christ was the slain lamb before the foundation of the world, that this is proof of the universal love of God? Considering the fact that you said God does not love those in hell. He never foreknew them in Christ. He always foreknew them to be damned. So even in your concept, He never loved them! So your evidence falls to the ground. The fact of eternal fire prepared for them proves this!
    Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
     
    #105 jne1611, Sep 26, 2006
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  6. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    James; You just spoke it both ways God works in time and out of time. come on,
     
    #106 Brother Bob, Sep 26, 2006
  7. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    You are putting the slain Lamb into time. Then only reference we have to the Lamb and time is it was slain before the foundation.
     
    #107 LeBuick, Sep 26, 2006
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    absolutely, if God was willingly to give His Son to be slain before the fall and still loved His whole creation? Then God so loved the world.

    You saying that God never loved those that went to hell is your words not mine. He loved them until they died in their sins. Why do you think the Spirit of God strives with man or "I stand at the door and knock and if any man will hear my voice and open the door I will come in and sup with him and he with me."
     
    #108 Brother Bob, Sep 26, 2006
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  9. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    I think you have done some of that glossing you talked about earlier.:D
     
    #109 jne1611, Sep 26, 2006
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Don't think so go back and read the whole post
     
    #110 Brother Bob, Sep 26, 2006
  11. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    I asked you plainly does God love those in hell. And you said no. Your answer was that he did love them, but now He does not. Don't forget what you say.
     
    #111 jne1611, Sep 26, 2006
  12. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Are you reading what you are posting?

    He loved them until they died in their sins. is my above post and the same as you just said.
     
    #112 Brother Bob, Sep 26, 2006
  13. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    OK. Then if that is your argument. Lets use Pharaoh for an example. God told him to let His people go! Could he have let them go. Be careful now.
     
    #113 jne1611, Sep 26, 2006
  14. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    You had not posted the rest when I replied.:laugh:
     
    #114 jne1611, Sep 26, 2006
  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    God used Pharaoh to show His Glory and being a timeless God could and did see what was in Pharaoh so God hardened him so He could show and deliver His people. He also used Judas the same way. No great thing for God for He sees what man chooses.
     
    #115 Brother Bob, Sep 26, 2006
  16. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    Your whole argument rests on foreknowledge being God looking into the future & finding faith & so predesignating. So tell me how could He love what He sees never receiving Christ & going to hell where according to you, He does not love them anymore? Does that not sound weird to you? Even in your idea of for-known faith which is nowhere in the Bible. How say you God loves what He knows He has prepared hell for?
     
    #116 jne1611, Sep 26, 2006
  17. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Fore He is GOD. God is not bound by time, but being that God made all of his creation, time is very much part of it.

    All of creation is made up of Time, space and matter. You cannot remove one from the other. A rock which is matter takes up space on earth, for a given time. All of creation is like this.

    Therefore when God works with creation, being that matter and time as well as space is part of His creation, then God works in time.

    Notice in the end (rev)...time is no more. Why? We will have new bodys and the new bodys are not made with the same matter. If they are like Christ...He walked through walls. If you have no matter, time is not needed for time is only a measurement of change in matter.


    Thus...God works both in time....and outside of time. agree?
     
    #117 Jarthur001, Sep 26, 2006
  18. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    God never said anything whatsoever about Pharaoh choosing anything. He said I will harden his heart. So when God said let my people go, could Pharaoh have done this? Look in the Bible. When Paul uses this account as an illustration. It is clear he is not talking about free - will! For if that was his thrust, why the supposition that they would then say "Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?"
     
    #118 jne1611, Sep 26, 2006
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  19. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    well...really it says...from the foundation of the world. :)

    And this was addressing Gods decree.....based on who wrote the book.


    and BTW...yes I am placing Christ in time. :)
    **********************<<<added later

    AND>......sorry I keep seeing more in your post.

    The only recorded? How about the gospel? Does that count?
     
    #119 Jarthur001, Sep 26, 2006
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  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    At least it was their choice even though God foresaw it.
    It is not near as weird as God creating people just to burn them which is your belief.
     
    #120 Brother Bob, Sep 26, 2006
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