Is 1 John 2:2 Really a defence of Universal Atonement?

lets rest a spell, what you say. I be back in a few.

 

You remember the talents and the one buried in the ground?

 

It does not matter...salvation is by faith. Jew or non-Jew...we all must have faith. Heb 10

What I asked was about the picture of the atonement in the OT. That is why you I thought you spoke of jezebele in the OT. The atonement of the OT was only a picture of the real one...it saved no one and had to be done each year. I know you know this..

hilasmos greek 2434.. is used only two times.

1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

"be merciful"... hilaskomai..has the same meaning

1) to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self
a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased
b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
2) to expiate, make propitiation for

Found here...

Hebrew word kapporeth..

1) mercy-seat, place of atonement
a) the golden plate of propitiation on which the High Priest sprinkled the seat 7 times on the Day of Atonement symbolically
reconciling Jehovah and His chosen people
1) the slab of gold on top of the ark of the covenant which measured 2.5 by 1.5 cubits; on it and part of it were the two golden cherubim facing each other whose outstretched wings came together above and constituted the throne of God

'hilasterion'... It is used here in Romans 3:25 where Paul says (literally) that God presented Christ as a propitiation or 'mercy seat'. This means that Jesus Christ is the mercy seat.

The Mercy Seat did not derive its worth from the purity of its gold but from the fact that it was the place where the blood of sacrifice was sprinkled in the presence of Yahweh.

The word for "mercy seat" is the same root for the word "atonement". It means to cover, cancel, appease, or cleanse.

The word "seat" speaks of a resting place so the mercy seat was the "place of mercy or propitiation"

Ex 25:18-20

The cherubim represent the judgment of God. The blood covered the mercy seat that lay atop the ark. Remember where the ark was placed...in the Holiest of Holies. The Blood was needed for the sins of the people and the fact that God is Holy.

Ex 25:21-22

Notice this phrase...And THERE I will meet with you. "there" is the mercy seat.

Salvation is in the Blood of the atonement. The Blood of the atonement of the cross was not a picture as was the lamb in the OT. Our LAMB...the Lamb of God..was placed on the Cross and His death was real and was the real atonement that was only pictured in the OT and it washed the sins away that very day. No other atonement will work. No other blood is needed. It is finished!!! The washing. The covering...is done.

Lk 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

1 Pet 1:18-19 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

Heb 9:11-12 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Notice this...those sins are already atoned.."apart from sin"...when He appears.

Dan 7

Does all mean all? All means all ...nations...greek...jew...fat...skinny...tall ...short....black...white

The atonement was a act of love. John 3:16

Love never fails. 1 Cor 13
The sins were atoned at the cross. This is love. This is the atonement. God said..."there I will meet you"..at the mercy seat. The meeting where the work was done and finished was the cross. The Cross is not a picture, for a picture is no longer needed. The blood of goats was a picture, but after the cross the picture is no longer needed.


In Christ...James

 

I never did get back to my 1st thought...sorry...so let me add.

The OT atonement, though a picture of the real one..the one on the cross..shows that the atonement...the blood sheed was not for all nations of the earth. We can even say Bob that the person had to believe...and this could happen outside the nation. I think there is a bit more to it...but lets just say this is true.

BUT STILL that fact remains...It was not for the whole world.

 

Salvation here means to take them home James; to Heaven.

This all even reads different James; Now this is where you try to say all means they will some come from all nations. When it says "all people" it goes on to say nations, languages, here it plainly tells us what all means.

There is no great mystery here James; sure it was by the blood of Christ they were saved but it does not say others could not of received it also.

That is not what the Scripture says James and I agree that the shedding of the blood was not the real thing you call it a

picture the Bible calls it a shadow but the fact remains that God's word says that He gave Himself a ramsom for all men. It

didn't say NT or OT but ALL men and I have to believe the word. Now for the atonement to be complete it takes a believer.

Those who died under the Law with faith died waiting upon the Messiah and Jesus fulfilled that and a fountain was opened

when they peirced Him in the side and forthwidth came blood and water and half flowed to the former sea and half to the

hinder sea. When that fountain open God fulfilled His promise to Israel that the Messiah was to come and that blood covered

them all that believed. They that believed completed the action of atonement of Jesus dying on the cross for those in OT.

That fountain is still flowing today but the day is set when it will stop as far as this earth is concerned and there will be no

repentance anymore. Those that are lost will cry but help won't come for they wasted the day of Grace away. amen,

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to

come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

Bob,

The 2 passages posted above...one in Dan 7, and the other in Rev 5.

Do these 2 passages show that ALL People can mean all as in "all nations"?

I understand you do not think it means this in 1 john 2:2. I just asking if these other two passsages are saying this.


In Christ...James.


That's it for me tonight...I need to do some work.

Later

 

Its is the way I understand them James;

I think you going to come back at me and say that all does not all time mean all but thats ok James for it does mean all just in a larger sense or group.

 

Keep in mind, God has always had a history of accepting other nations into his grace. Look at the passover and exodus from egypt, those were not just Jews that were delivered yet God called them all his people.

jesus made it plain, he came unto his own but his own received him not. He then opened salvation to all men. And yes I mean all when I say world...

 

God has been saving Gentiles all along, for example, Rahab. But the "secret things belong unto the Lord". The working of grace in the Gentiles was a "secret" in the O.T. (although in human terms it shouldn't have been, as Jesus said to Nicodemus "art thou a master of Israel and knoweth not these things?"). The New Testament revelation makes the secret known - it's published in bold headlines in the N.T. text.

And Rahab serves as an excellent study of God's grace. She was a believer. She had heard of the Israelites and their God and His mighty works. This hearing was effective in bring about her repentance and faith. But so did her whole city hear of Israel and their God, for Jehovah’s fame had been spread throughout the land as purposed by God in His spectacular overthrow of Pharaoh and his army. But why was this "hearing" the means by which Rahab was brought to repentance and faith, but the same "hearing" was the means by which Jericho bolstered their defenses, to resist God to the end?

The answer is that, long long before Jesus ever said "my sheep hear my voice", Rahab heard a call from God - the voice of her Savior - and being God's chosen vessel of mercy, responded to the voice of her Shepard and followed him in obedience. She heard the effectual call.

Either that, or she was just a better person than the rest of the Jerichoans, and she was saved by her own merit instead of Christ's merit and God's grace.

 

I agree JD.

Ru 1:16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:

 

There certainly were "strangers" to Israel that accepted Israel's God and therefore became a part of them.

 

I think the OP and the second post have some problems.
First, regardless of the literalness of v.1, v.2 still contrasts "ours" with "the world's": "Not for ours only, but also for the whole world."
Second, if the "ours" is only Jewish believers, and not the gentile believers, then some verses appear confusing, such as 1.3 and 1.5, where he says 'you may have fellowship with us' and 1.6, where he says "if we say...." I think that if we closely follow the "we" through chapter 1, it gets very confusing if we try to make the 'we' in 1.6-10 strictly mean all Jewish believers, especially in light of the contrast between "you" and "us" in 1.3. I think that if we consistently try to divide the book as Mr. Pink has done in the select verses, there is confusion.

Thirdly, it gets even more confusing in 2.15-16, where John tells us not to love the things in the world, and gives us a short list of sins, since these things are not from the Father. If we take "world" in 2.2 to mean gentile believers, then John is telling us to avoid gentile believers since they are not from the father. This is confusion.

If we take "world" in 2.2 to mean gentile believers, then take "world" in 2:15-16 to mean unbelievers, then we have the same author in the same passage using the same word to mean opposite things.

Next, regarding the "fifth place" argument. THe "whole world" does indeed make sense, if we let the passage speak for itself: Jesus paid not only for our sin (believers) but also for the sins of the whole world (the whole sinful world, per 2.15-16).

This does not acheive universal salvation, for not all in the world are believers.

I think rather Mr. Pink has wrenched the passage, and shoehorned it to fit his theology. I see much more confusion with trying to make this passage fit into limited atonement than I do in just letting it speak for itself, and let it say that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, in the normal, everyday sense of 2.15-16.

 

We could agree that the proper translation is "for all men do not have THE faith..." maybe??? At least I would fully agree with that.

Ed

"heart iron"????

signed: Language Cop

 

Great post, Jarthur001. :thumbsup: The tax collector in Luke 18:134 was NOT praying the so-called "Sinner's Prayer", as we so often hear incorrectly and ignorantly preached! Rather, he was literally asking - "God! YOU be the blood-covering on the mercy seat, for me, the sinner"! So, as EdEdwards would say, "Amen! Bro. James! Preach it!"

Ed

 

Good point! Well summarized and insightful, IMO.

Again, well summarized and again, very insightful, IMO.

May I offer that you seem to see Mr. Pink as following Bible College Rule #3. I went to a Bible College, from which I did graduate, with a B.A. degree. That one, as most Bible Colleges relied on "Three Rules"!

Rule #1 : The Administration is always right!

Rule #2 : If the Administration happens to be wrong, refer back to Rule #1.

Rule #3 : Never let the Bible interfere with your theology! :
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

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