Is 1 John 2:2 Really a defence of Universal Atonement?

[jne1611]

Then you just posting and not reading the answers for I gave Chapter and verse the first time she was mentioned and you knew who I was talking about for I could tell by your answers.

Well, the context of our conversation has swayed back and forth. I have been reading your answers.

 

[jne1611]

All men have not the faith that was delivered unto the saints. Also, there are those who have had the concious seared with a heart iron, I doubt if they have any faith at all. But who knows, even the devil believed.

Yes, but you said God gave all men a measure of faith. You have contradicted yourself.

 

[Brother Bob]

lets rest a spell, what you say. I be back in a few.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes, but you said God gave all men a measure of faith. You have contradicted yourself.

You remember the talents and the one buried in the ground?

 

[jne1611]

lets rest a spell, what you say. I be back in a few.

OK. No offence. I enjoy conversing with you. Lets keep it sweet.:smilewinkgrin:
I have to go myself. Catch you tomorrow Lord Willing!

 

[jne1611]

You remember the talents and the one buried in the ground?

You think this is faith?

 

[Jarthur001]

You tell me but if she was why was she lost?

It does not matter...salvation is by faith. Jew or non-Jew...we all must have faith. Heb 10

What I asked was about the picture of the atonement in the OT. That is why you I thought you spoke of jezebele in the OT. The atonement of the OT was only a picture of the real one...it saved no one and had to be done each year. I know you know this..

hilasmos greek 2434.. is used only two times.

1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

"be merciful"... hilaskomai..has the same meaning

1) to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self
a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased
b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
2) to expiate, make propitiation for

Found here...

Luke 18:13
But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, "God, be merciful to me, the sinner!"

Hebrew 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrew word kapporeth..

1) mercy-seat, place of atonement
a) the golden plate of propitiation on which the High Priest sprinkled the seat 7 times on the Day of Atonement symbolically
reconciling Jehovah and His chosen people
1) the slab of gold on top of the ark of the covenant which measured 2.5 by 1.5 cubits; on it and part of it were the two golden cherubim facing each other whose outstretched wings came together above and constituted the throne of God

Lev 16:14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle [it] with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
Lev 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that [is] for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat

Rom 3:23-26 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

'hilasterion'... It is used here in Romans 3:25 where Paul says (literally) that God presented Christ as a propitiation or 'mercy seat'. This means that Jesus Christ is the mercy seat.

The Mercy Seat did not derive its worth from the purity of its gold but from the fact that it was the place where the blood of sacrifice was sprinkled in the presence of Yahweh.

The word for "mercy seat" is the same root for the word "atonement". It means to cover, cancel, appease, or cleanse.

The word "seat" speaks of a resting place so the mercy seat was the "place of mercy or propitiation"

Ex 25:18-20

"And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work you shall make them at the two ends of the mercy seat. "Make one cherub at one end, and the other cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim at the two ends of it of one piece with the mercy seat. "And the cherubim shall stretch out their wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and they shall face one another; the faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat.

The cherubim represent the judgment of God. The blood covered the mercy seat that lay atop the ark. Remember where the ark was placed...in the Holiest of Holies. The Blood was needed for the sins of the people and the fact that God is Holy.

Ex 25:21-22

"You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you. "And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, about everything which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel.

Notice this phrase...And THERE I will meet with you. "there" is the mercy seat.

Salvation is in the Blood of the atonement. The Blood of the atonement of the cross was not a picture as was the lamb in the OT. Our LAMB...the Lamb of God..was placed on the Cross and His death was real and was the real atonement that was only pictured in the OT and it washed the sins away that very day. No other atonement will work. No other blood is needed. It is finished!!! The washing. The covering...is done.

Lk 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

1 Pet 1:18-19 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

Heb 9:11-12 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Notice this...those sins are already atoned.."apart from sin"...when He appears.

Dan 7

"I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated; his garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire; A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. .........I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Does all mean all? All means all ...nations...greek...jew...fat...skinny...tall ...short....black...white

Rev 5:1-13 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?" And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals." And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth." Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom, and strength and honor and glory and blessing!" And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

The atonement was a act of love. John 3:16

Love never fails. 1 Cor 13
The sins were atoned at the cross. This is love. This is the atonement. God said..."there I will meet you"..at the mercy seat. The meeting where the work was done and finished was the cross. The Cross is not a picture, for a picture is no longer needed. The blood of goats was a picture, but after the cross the picture is no longer needed.


In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

I never did get back to my 1st thought...sorry...so let me add.

The OT atonement, though a picture of the real one..the one on the cross..shows that the atonement...the blood sheed was not for all nations of the earth. We can even say Bob that the person had to believe...and this could happen outside the nation. I think there is a bit more to it...but lets just say this is true.

BUT STILL that fact remains...It was not for the whole world.

 

[Brother Bob]

Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Notice this...those sins are already atoned.."apart from sin"...when He appears.

Salvation here means to take them home James; to Heaven.

Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

This all even reads different James; Now this is where you try to say all means they will some come from all nations. When it says "all people" it goes on to say nations, languages, here it plainly tells us what all means.

Lk 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

There is no great mystery here James; sure it was by the blood of Christ they were saved but it does not say others could not of received it also.

BUT STILL that fact remains...It was not for the whole world.

That is not what the Scripture says James and I agree that the shedding of the blood was not the real thing you call it a

picture the Bible calls it a shadow but the fact remains that God's word says that He gave Himself a ramsom for all men. It

didn't say NT or OT but ALL men and I have to believe the word. Now for the atonement to be complete it takes a believer.

Those who died under the Law with faith died waiting upon the Messiah and Jesus fulfilled that and a fountain was opened

when they peirced Him in the side and forthwidth came blood and water and half flowed to the former sea and half to the

hinder sea. When that fountain open God fulfilled His promise to Israel that the Messiah was to come and that blood covered

them all that believed. They that believed completed the action of atonement of Jesus dying on the cross for those in OT.

That fountain is still flowing today but the day is set when it will stop as far as this earth is concerned and there will be no

repentance anymore. Those that are lost will cry but help won't come for they wasted the day of Grace away. amen,

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to

come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[Jarthur001]

Bob,

The 2 passages posted above...one in Dan 7, and the other in Rev 5.

Do these 2 passages show that ALL People can mean all as in "all nations"?

I understand you do not think it means this in 1 john 2:2. I just asking if these other two passsages are saying this.


In Christ...James.


That's it for me tonight...I need to do some work.

Later

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob,

The 2 passages posted above...one in Dan 7, and the other in Rev 5.

Do these 2 passages show that ALL People can mean all as in "all nations"?

I understand you do not think it means this in 1 john 2:2. I just asking if these other two passsages are saying this.


In Christ...James.


That's it for me tonight...I need to do some work.

Later

Its is the way I understand them James;

I think you going to come back at me and say that all does not all time mean all but thats ok James for it does mean all just in a larger sense or group.

 

[LeBuick]

Keep in mind, God has always had a history of accepting other nations into his grace. Look at the passover and exodus from egypt, those were not just Jews that were delivered yet God called them all his people.

jesus made it plain, he came unto his own but his own received him not. He then opened salvation to all men. And yes I mean all when I say world...

 

[J.D.]

Keep in mind, God has always had a history of accepting other nations into his grace. Look at the passover and exodus from egypt, those were not just Jews that were delivered yet God called them all his people.

jesus made it plain, he came unto his own but his own received him not. He then opened salvation to all men. And yes I mean all when I say world...

God has been saving Gentiles all along, for example, Rahab. But the "secret things belong unto the Lord". The working of grace in the Gentiles was a "secret" in the O.T. (although in human terms it shouldn't have been, as Jesus said to Nicodemus "art thou a master of Israel and knoweth not these things?"). The New Testament revelation makes the secret known - it's published in bold headlines in the N.T. text.

And Rahab serves as an excellent study of God's grace. She was a believer. She had heard of the Israelites and their God and His mighty works. This hearing was effective in bring about her repentance and faith. But so did her whole city hear of Israel and their God, for Jehovah’s fame had been spread throughout the land as purposed by God in His spectacular overthrow of Pharaoh and his army. But why was this "hearing" the means by which Rahab was brought to repentance and faith, but the same "hearing" was the means by which Jericho bolstered their defenses, to resist God to the end?

The answer is that, long long before Jesus ever said "my sheep hear my voice", Rahab heard a call from God - the voice of her Savior - and being God's chosen vessel of mercy, responded to the voice of her Shepard and followed him in obedience. She heard the effectual call.

Either that, or she was just a better person than the rest of the Jerichoans, and she was saved by her own merit instead of Christ's merit and God's grace.

 

[LeBuick]

I agree JD.

Ru 1:16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:

 

[Brother Bob]

There certainly were "strangers" to Israel that accepted Israel's God and therefore became a part of them.

 

[Humblesmith]

I think the OP and the second post have some problems.
First, regardless of the literalness of v.1, v.2 still contrasts "ours" with "the world's": "Not for ours only, but also for the whole world."
Second, if the "ours" is only Jewish believers, and not the gentile believers, then some verses appear confusing, such as 1.3 and 1.5, where he says 'you may have fellowship with us' and 1.6, where he says "if we say...." I think that if we closely follow the "we" through chapter 1, it gets very confusing if we try to make the 'we' in 1.6-10 strictly mean all Jewish believers, especially in light of the contrast between "you" and "us" in 1.3. I think that if we consistently try to divide the book as Mr. Pink has done in the select verses, there is confusion.

Thirdly, it gets even more confusing in 2.15-16, where John tells us not to love the things in the world, and gives us a short list of sins, since these things are not from the Father. If we take "world" in 2.2 to mean gentile believers, then John is telling us to avoid gentile believers since they are not from the father. This is confusion.

If we take "world" in 2.2 to mean gentile believers, then take "world" in 2:15-16 to mean unbelievers, then we have the same author in the same passage using the same word to mean opposite things.

Next, regarding the "fifth place" argument. THe "whole world" does indeed make sense, if we let the passage speak for itself: Jesus paid not only for our sin (believers) but also for the sins of the whole world (the whole sinful world, per 2.15-16).

This does not acheive universal salvation, for not all in the world are believers.

I think rather Mr. Pink has wrenched the passage, and shoehorned it to fit his theology. I see much more confusion with trying to make this passage fit into limited atonement than I do in just letting it speak for itself, and let it say that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, in the normal, everyday sense of 2.15-16.

 

[EdSutton]

All men have not the faith that was delivered unto the saints. Also, there are those who have had the concious seared with a heart iron, I doubt if they have any faith at all. But who knows, even the devil believed.

We could agree that the proper translation is "for all men do not have THE faith..." maybe??? At least I would fully agree with that.

Ed

"heart iron"????

signed: Language Cop

 

[EdSutton]

It does not matter...salvation is by faith. Jew or non-Jew...we all must have faith. Heb 10

What I asked was about the picture of the atonement in the OT. That is why you I thought you spoke of jezebele in the OT. The atonement of the OT was only a picture of the real one...it saved no one and had to be done each year. I know you know this..

hilasmos greek 2434.. is used only two times.

1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

"be merciful"... hilaskomai..has the same meaning

1) to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self
a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased
b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
2) to expiate, make propitiation for

Found here...


Hebrew word kapporeth..

1) mercy-seat, place of atonement
a) the golden plate of propitiation on which the High Priest sprinkled the seat 7 times on the Day of Atonement symbolically
reconciling Jehovah and His chosen people
1) the slab of gold on top of the ark of the covenant which measured 2.5 by 1.5 cubits; on it and part of it were the two golden cherubim facing each other whose outstretched wings came together above and constituted the throne of God





'hilasterion'... It is used here in Romans 3:25 where Paul says (literally) that God presented Christ as a propitiation or 'mercy seat'. This means that Jesus Christ is the mercy seat.

The Mercy Seat did not derive its worth from the purity of its gold but from the fact that it was the place where the blood of sacrifice was sprinkled in the presence of Yahweh.

The word for "mercy seat" is the same root for the word "atonement". It means to cover, cancel, appease, or cleanse.

The word "seat" speaks of a resting place so the mercy seat was the "place of mercy or propitiation"

Ex 25:18-20



The cherubim represent the judgment of God. The blood covered the mercy seat that lay atop the ark. Remember where the ark was placed...in the Holiest of Holies. The Blood was needed for the sins of the people and the fact that God is Holy.

Ex 25:21-22


Notice this phrase...And THERE I will meet with you. "there" is the mercy seat.

Salvation is in the Blood of the atonement. The Blood of the atonement of the cross was not a picture as was the lamb in the OT. Our LAMB...the Lamb of God..was placed on the Cross and His death was real and was the real atonement that was only pictured in the OT and it washed the sins away that very day. No other atonement will work. No other blood is needed. It is finished!!! The washing. The covering...is done.

Lk 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

1 Pet 1:18-19 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

Heb 9:11-12 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Notice this...those sins are already atoned.."apart from sin"...when He appears.

Dan 7



Does all mean all? All means all ...nations...greek...jew...fat...skinny...tall ...short....black...white



The atonement was a act of love. John 3:16

Love never fails. 1 Cor 13
The sins were atoned at the cross. This is love. This is the atonement. God said..."there I will meet you"..at the mercy seat. The meeting where the work was done and finished was the cross. The Cross is not a picture, for a picture is no longer needed. The blood of goats was a picture, but after the cross the picture is no longer needed.


In Christ...James

Great post, Jarthur001. :thumbsup: The tax collector in Luke 18:134 was NOT praying the so-called "Sinner's Prayer", as we so often hear incorrectly and ignorantly preached! Rather, he was literally asking - "God! YOU be the blood-covering on the mercy seat, for me, the sinner"! So, as EdEdwards would say, "Amen! Bro. James! Preach it!"

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

I think the OP and the second post have some problems.
First, regardless of the literalness of v.1, v.2 still contrasts "ours" with "the world's": "Not for ours only, but also for the whole world."

Good point! Well summarized and insightful, IMO.

I think rather Mr. Pink has wrenched the passage, and shoehorned it to fit his theology. I see much more confusion with trying to make this passage fit into limited atonement than I do in just letting it speak for itself, and let it say that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, in the normal, everyday sense of 2.15-16.

Again, well summarized and again, very insightful, IMO.

May I offer that you seem to see Mr. Pink as following Bible College Rule #3. I went to a Bible College, from which I did graduate, with a B.A. degree. That one, as most Bible Colleges relied on "Three Rules"!

Rule #1 : The Administration is always right!

Rule #2 : If the Administration happens to be wrong, refer back to Rule #1.

Rule #3 : Never let the Bible interfere with your theology! :
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

~!@#$%^&*(