Is 1 John 2:2 Really a defence of Universal Atonement?

LeBuick · Sep 26, 2006

How about these two verses?

Before Christ opens the seals;

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

and the message of the everlasting Gospel;

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Did either of them leave any out of the "world"?

jne1611 · Sep 26, 2006

Here is what John Gill had to say on the subject.
......Scriptures, which may seem to favour, and are sometimes brought in support of the universal scheme, are such in which the words "world", and the "whole world", are used; when the death of Christ, and the benefits of it, are spoken of. As,
1. The words of John the Baptist to his hearers, in John 1:29.
"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world!"
which are to be understood, neither of original sin, which is common to the whole world; but is not taken away, with respect to all: nor of the actual transgressions of every person; which is not true in fact; and is only true of such whose sins are laid on Christ, and imputed to him; and which he bore, and the whole punishment of them; and so has taken them away, as to be seen no more; which cannot be said of the sins of all men, 1 Timothy 5:24 they are the sins of "many", and not all, which have been made to meet on Christ, and he has bore them, and took them away, Isaiah 53:6,12.
2. The words of Christ himself, in John 3:16.
"God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son", etc. But all the individuals in the world are not loved by God in such a manner; nor is Christ the special gift of God to them all; nor have all faith in him; nor can it be said of all, that they shall never perish, but have everlasting life; since many will go into everlasting punishment: but by the world, is
meant the Gentiles; and Christ opposes a notion of the Jews, that they themselves only were the objects of God’s love, and that the Gentiles had no share in it, and would not enjoy any benefit by the Messiah when he came; but, says Christ, I tell you, God has so loved the world of the Gentiles, as to give his Son, that whosoever believes in him, be he of what nation soever, shall be saved with an everlasting salvation.
3. The words of the Samaritans to the woman of Samaria, in John 4:42. "We know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world", of Gentiles as well as Jews; this they learnt from what Christ had made known of himself, and of his grace to them; for they were originally Gentiles, and were now reckoned by the Jews as heathens; see also 1 John 4:14.
4. The words of our Lord in his discourse about himself, as the bread which "giveth life unto the world"; and which "is his flesh he gave for the life of the world": now no more can be designed by the "world", than those who are quickened by this bread applied unto them, and received by them, and for the obtaining of eternal life; for whom the flesh, or human nature of Christ, was given, as a sacrifice for sin, whereby that is secured unto them: but this is not true of all men; since even the gospel, which exhibits the heavenly manna, and holds forth Christ, the bread of life, is to some "the savour of death unto death", while to others it is, "the savour of life unto life", 2 Corinthians 2:16.

jne1611 · Sep 26, 2006

5. The words of the apostle, in 2 Corinthians 5:19.
"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself":
these are the same with the us, in the preceding verse, which were a special and distinct people; for it cannot be said of every man what follows, "not imputing their trespasses unto them"; which is a special blessing, that belongs to some; for though it comes upon both Jews and Gentiles, that believe, yet not upon all and every man, Romans 4:6-8 for some mens sins will be charged upon them; and they will be punished for them, with an everlasting destruction; by various circumstances in the context it seems, that by the "world" the Gentiles are meant.
6. The famous, and well known text, in this controversy, is 1 John 2:2 where Christ is said to be, "the propitiation for the sins of the whole world". Now let it be observed, that these phrases, "all the world", and "the whole world", are often in scripture to be taken in a limited sense; as in Luke 2:1 "that all the world should be taxed"; it can mean no more than that part of the world the Roman empire, which was under the dominion of Caesar Augustus: and in Romans 1:8 it can only design the Christians throughout the world, not the heathens; and when the gospel is said to be "in all the world, and bring forth fruit", Colossians 1:6 it can only intend true believers in Christ, in all places, in whom only it brings forth fruit; and when it is said, "all the world wondered after the beast", Revelation 13:3 at that same time, there were saints he made war with, because they would not worship him: and so in other places; and in this epistle of John, the phrase is used in a restrained sense, 1 John 5:19 where those that belong to God, are distinguished from the whole world, described by lying in wickedness, which they do not. And as John was a Jew, he spake in the language of the Jews, who frequently, in their writings, use the phrase "the whole world", in a limited sense: sometimes it only signifies a large number of people ; sometimes a majority of their doctors f449; sometimes a congregation ; or a whole synagogue ; and sometimes very few: and so here in the text under consideration, it cannot be understood of all men; only of those for whom Christ is an advocate, 1 John 5:1 whose advocacy is founded on his propitiatory sacrifice; now Christ is not an advocate, or does not make intercession for all men; for he himself says, "I pray not for the world": and Christ can be a propitiation for no more than he is an advocate; if he was a propitiation for all, he would surely be an advocate for all; and plead on their behalf his propitiatory sacrifice; but Christ was "set forth", or preordained, to be "a propitiation", not for all men; but for such only, who, "through faith in his blood", receive the benefit of it, and rejoice in it, Romans 3:25 5:11 moreover, in this epistle, the persons for whom Christ is a propitiation, are represented as a peculiar people, and the objects of God’s special love, 1 John 4:10 but what may be observed, and will lead more clearly into the sense of the passage before us, is, that the apostle John was a Jew, and wrote to Jews; and in the text speaks of them, and of the Gentiles, as to be distinguished; and therefore says of Christ, "he is" the propitiation "for our sins; and not for ours only", for the sins of us Jews only; "but for the sins of the whole world"; of the Gentiles also, of all the elect of God throughout the Gentile world: in which a notion of the Jews is opposed, that the Gentiles would receive no benefit by the Messiah, as has been observed, on John 3:16 and here the apostle takes up the sentiment of his Lord and Master, in whose bosom he lay, and expresses it. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings, than to call the Gentiles the world, the whole world, and the nations of the world; as they are by the apostle Paul, in distinction from the Jews, Romans 11:12,15.

Blammo · Sep 26, 2006

hint, hint...

Exodus 12:12-14 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

hint, hint...

Blammo · Sep 26, 2006

Christ our Redeemer died on the cross,
Died for the sinner, paid all his due.
All who receive Him need never fear,
Yes, He will pass, will pass over you.

Refrain

When I see the blood, when I see the blood,
When I see the blood, I will pass, I will pass over you.

Chiefest of sinners, Jesus will save;
As He has promised, so He will do;
Oh, sinner, hear Him, trust in His Word,
Then He will pass, will pass over you.

Refrain

Judgment is coming, all will be there.
Who have rejected, who have refused?
Oh, sinner, hasten, let Jesus in,
Oh, He will pass, will pass over you.

Refrain

O great compassion! O boundless love!
Jesus hath power, Jesus is true;
All who believe are safe from the storm,
Oh, He will pass, will pass over you.

Refrain

Humblesmith · Sep 26, 2006

The word "world" is in 1 John about 24 times. Over and over, it clearly speaks of the sinful, godless world....."do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the father is not in him."

As Gill points out, it separates all right.......but it separates the heathen from the saints. So how can we take this one instance in 1 John 2.2 and make it say something totally opposite? Here in this one instance it is supposed to all of a sudden mean the Christian world, that loves God?

"World" generally separates all right, Gill is correct to that extent. (although references to creation and the flood mention world in a general sense). But "World" separates the saints from the lost. To say otherwise wrenches the context.

Again, to keep Gill's and Pink's view would have the same author in the same book use "world" 23 times to speak of the lost, and one time to speak of the saved. I don't think this fits.

EdSutton · Sep 26, 2006

jne1611 said:

5. The words of the apostle, in 2 Corinthians 5:19.
"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself":
these are the same with the us, in the preceding verse, which were a special and distinct people; for it cannot be said of every man what follows, "not imputing their trespasses unto them"; which is a special blessing, that belongs to some; for though it comes upon both Jews and Gentiles, that believe, yet not upon all and every man, Romans 4:6-8 for some mens sins will be charged upon them; and they will be punished for them, with an everlasting destruction; by various circumstances in the context it seems, that by the "world" the Gentiles are meant.
6. The famous, and well known text, in this controversy, is 1 John 2:2 where Christ is said to be, "the propitiation for the sins of the whole world". Now let it be observed, that these phrases, "all the world", and "the whole world", are often in scripture to be taken in a limited sense; as in Luke 2:1 "that all the world should be taxed"; it can mean no more than that part of the world the Roman empire, which was under the dominion of Caesar Augustus: and in Romans 1:8 it can only design the Christians throughout the world, not the heathens; and when the gospel is said to be "in all the world, and bring forth fruit", Colossians 1:6 it can only intend true believers in Christ, in all places, in whom only it brings forth fruit; and when it is said, "all the world wondered after the beast", Revelation 13:3 at that same time, there were saints he made war with, because they would not worship him: and so in other places; and in this epistle of John, the phrase is used in a restrained sense, 1 John 5:19 where those that belong to God, are distinguished from the whole world, described by lying in wickedness, which they do not. And as John was a Jew, he spake in the language of the Jews, who frequently, in their writings, use the phrase "the whole world", in a limited sense: sometimes it only signifies a large number of people ; sometimes a majority of their doctors f449; sometimes a congregation ; or a whole synagogue ; and sometimes very few: and so here in the text under consideration, it cannot be understood of all men; only of those for whom Christ is an advocate, 1 John 5:1 whose advocacy is founded on his propitiatory sacrifice; now Christ is not an advocate, or does not make intercession for all men; for he himself says, "I pray not for the world": and Christ can be a propitiation for no more than he is an advocate; if he was a propitiation for all, he would surely be an advocate for all; and plead on their behalf his propitiatory sacrifice; but Christ was "set forth", or preordained, to be "a propitiation", not for all men; but for such only, who, "through faith in his blood", receive the benefit of it, and rejoice in it, Romans 3:25 5:11 moreover, in this epistle, the persons for whom Christ is a propitiation, are represented as a peculiar people, and the objects of God’s special love, 1 John 4:10 but what may be observed, and will lead more clearly into the sense of the passage before us, is, that the apostle John was a Jew, and wrote to Jews; and in the text speaks of them, and of the Gentiles, as to be distinguished; and therefore says of Christ, "he is" the propitiation "for our sins; and not for ours only", for the sins of us Jews only; "but for the sins of the whole world"; of the Gentiles also, of all the elect of God throughout the Gentile world: in which a notion of the Jews is opposed, that the Gentiles would receive no benefit by the Messiah, as has been observed, on John 3:16 and here the apostle takes up the sentiment of his Lord and Master, in whose bosom he lay, and expresses it. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings, than to call the Gentiles the world, the whole world, and the nations of the world; as they are by the apostle Paul, in distinction from the Jews, Romans 11:12,15.
Click to expand...

And let us always be careful to always observe Rule #3!

"Thou shalt not allow thy Bible to interfere with thy theology!"

Ed

EdSutton · Sep 26, 2006

Humblesmith said:

The word "world" is in 1 John about 24 times. Over and over, it clearly speaks of the sinful, godless world....."do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the father is not in him."

As Gill points out, it separates all right.......but it separates the heathen from the saints. So how can we take this one instance in 1 John 2.2 and make it say something totally opposite? Here in this one instance it is supposed to all of a sudden mean the Christian world, that loves God?

"World" generally separates all right, Gill is correct to that extent. (although references to creation and the flood mention world in a general sense). But "World" separates the saints from the lost. To say otherwise wrenches the context.

Again, to keep Gill's and Pink's view would have the same author in the same book use "world" 23 times to speak of the lost, and one time to speak of the saved. I don't think this fits.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup: Agreed! See my last post!

Ed

jne1611 · Sep 26, 2006

Humblesmith said:

The word "world" is in 1 John about 24 times. Over and over, it clearly speaks of the sinful, godless world....."do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the father is not in him."

As Gill points out, it separates all right.......but it separates the heathen from the saints. So how can we take this one instance in 1 John 2.2 and make it say something totally opposite? Here in this one instance it is supposed to all of a sudden mean the Christian world, that loves God?

"World" generally separates all right, Gill is correct to that extent. (although references to creation and the flood mention world in a general sense). But "World" separates the saints from the lost. To say otherwise wrenches the context.

Again, to keep Gill's and Pink's view would have the same author in the same book use "world" 23 times to speak of the lost, and one time to speak of the saved. I don't think this fits.
Click to expand...

I am not saying that it is speaking of the "saved" as some are still in their sins. We believe these verses are just breaking down the barrier set up by Judaism that says only Jews were to be saved. The term "whole world" shows that the whole gentile realm is included in this blessing. This can be seen in Rom 11. Where "the riches of the "world" denotes the gentiles. Paul said that he endured all things for "the elect's sakes" that they would obtain salvation. I take all the Scriptures dealing with salvation in the light of the eternal election of God for His people. I am not posting these things trying to state Gill or Pink as infallible. Just showing their views on the subject to which I agree with a lot of.
But I do also agree with you about the world also denoting the sin - cursed realm as well. But I do not think "world" in 1st John has the same meaning each time it is found. The meaning must be determined by context & the body of truth of the Word of God.

Brother Bob · Sep 26, 2006

Seems to me Paul distinguished that he was talking about the Gentiles and the World.

Romans 11;
12: Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

Seems to me He could of meant the world when He said Fall
Gentiles when he said diminishing of the Gentiles.

The Gentiles could of diminished and the world be left.

But I probably agree with you on this one.

jne1611 · Sep 26, 2006

Brother Bob said:

Seems to me Paul distinguished that he was talking about the Gentiles and the World.

Romans 11;
12: Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
Click to expand...

Same context. Words interchanged. That is all. There is no way you can hold to the ground that every where you find the word "world" that it means every single individual in the world. It should not be very hard at all for you to see by "world", Paul is contrasting Jews with Gentiles.

Brother Bob · Sep 26, 2006

Same context. Words interchanged. That is all. There is no way you can hold to the ground that every where you find the word "world" that it means every single individual in the world. It should not be very hard at all for you to see by "world", Paul is contrasting Jews with Gentiles.
Click to expand...

Did you read my previous post or just gloss over it?

Humblesmith · Sep 26, 2006

Thanks for your considerate response. Please take mine in the same tone.

jne1611 said:

I am not saying that it is speaking of the "saved" as some are still in their sins. We believe these verses are just breaking down the barrier set up by Judaism that says only Jews were to be saved. The term "whole world" shows that the whole gentile realm is included in this blessing.
Click to expand...

But I still don't see how this can fit. 1 John 2.2 says that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. I'll have to think on this more. I just think that there is no clear indication that the meaning of this sentence is different than the overall context.

jne1611 said:

I take all the Scriptures dealing with salvation in the light of the eternal election of God for His people.
Click to expand...

I think this is the heart of many disagreements. Respectfully and humbly, may I suggest an alternative? Take teachings dealing with eternal election in the light of the Scriptures. I'm not trying to be cute........I honestly think that all of us are guilty of approaching scripture with our theological colored glasses. I can't remember the exact quote, but I think it was Spurgeon who was asked why his actions or teachings seemed to not align exactly, and he said something like 'I'd rather bend my teaching to scripture rather than make it fit into what I think is consistent.;

jne1611 said:

I am not posting these things trying to state Gill or Pink as infallible. Just showing their views on the subject to which I agree with a lot of.
But I do also agree with you about the world also denoting the sin - cursed realm as well.
Click to expand...

I understand what you mean, and I think in this area we agree.

jne1611 · Sep 26, 2006

Brother Bob said:

Did you read my previous post or just gloss over it?
Click to expand...

Gloss over what? I just replied to what you said.

jne1611 · Sep 26, 2006

Humblesmith said:

Thanks for your considerate response. Please take mine in the same tone.

But I still don't see how this can fit. 1 John 2.2 says that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. I'll have to think on this more. I just think that there is no clear indication that the meaning of this sentence is different than the overall context.

I think this is the heart of many disagreements. Respectfully and humbly, may I suggest an alternative? Take teachings dealing with eternal election in the light of the Scriptures. I'm not trying to be cute........I honestly think that all of us are guilty of approaching scripture with our theological colored glasses. I can't remember the exact quote, but I think it was Spurgeon who was asked why his actions or teachings seemed to not align exactly, and he said something like 'I'd rather bend my teaching to scripture rather than make it fit into what I think is consistent.;

I understand what you mean, and I think in this area we agree.
Click to expand...

I will agree with you on the principal & spirit of what you have said. I have changed my mind on a lot of things after a long study. Most of the reason i post on here is to see other views or even views that are much like mine. I think on these things all day at work & always come out more educated. I appreciate your meekness of mind. Your on the right track & your right. I don't want to be guilty of making a Scripture fit something that it does not. But in turn I want to know the all around doctrine as well so I know what I am dealing with on any given subject. That is why I chose this verse. It is like a stepping stone to the one who loves the Word to dive into the doctrine of the atonement to See what the Scripture says. Not really to debate, but to plunge us all into a study of the Word & a blessed doctrine.
Back to 1John 2:2. A Scripture that got me thinking on this was Rom. 3:25. If he is a propitiation through faith in his blood, then as our faith is a consequence of God's eternal election of us in Christ, then as I see it Christ as a propitiation was set forth so to redeem the chosen of God.

jne1611 · Sep 26, 2006

Humblesmith said:

Thanks for your considerate response. Please take mine in the same tone.

But I still don't see how this can fit. 1 John 2.2 says that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. I'll have to think on this more. I just think that there is no clear indication that the meaning of this sentence is different than the overall context.

I think this is the heart of many disagreements. Respectfully and humbly, may I suggest an alternative? Take teachings dealing with eternal election in the light of the Scriptures. I'm not trying to be cute........I honestly think that all of us are guilty of approaching scripture with our theological colored glasses. I can't remember the exact quote, but I think it was Spurgeon who was asked why his actions or teachings seemed to not align exactly, and he said something like 'I'd rather bend my teaching to scripture rather than make it fit into what I think is consistent.;

I understand what you mean, and I think in this area we agree.
Click to expand...

Are you a believer in unconditional election?

Jarthur001 · Sep 26, 2006

Alot of ideas have been given here. Now maybe we should look at a few verses.

The atonement is about LOVE.....

Check out the verses...

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

********
Note on the verses above. Christ says the Father loves them (the elect) just as much as He loved Him. Notice also that this love was before the foundation of the world. In other words these verses found in John 17 is saying the father has ALWAYS loved the elect....just as much as He loved the Son. If God loved the whole world, is there some point He will not love some? Will God ever stop loving the Son?
************

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
************
NOTE...You mean a Calvinist will post john 3:16? Yes..we love it, for we understand it.
***********

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

***************
Note on the verse above.. If the Lord loves the ones he chastens, does this not call for another side...those he lets go? As in Romans 1.."He turned over to a reprobate mind"
***************

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

We love him, because he first loved us.
**************
BECAUSE?? The reason why we love Him is BECAUSE He 1st loved us. Think about it.

**************

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
********
NOTE...If Christ views the elect as his bride as show in the verse above, would Christ give His love to any other then His wife?

****************

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

*******************
I know I have already post John 3: 16...but please look at it again with this other verse in mind.

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

*******************

Now being God is love we MUST look at the one big passage on love.

1 Cor 13

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Ok..get ready for this....here comes the big one..

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

********************

Will God give up on us? No

Will Gods love always last? Yes

Did the atonement work in each case? Yes

That my friend is the atonement of Christ.
They call this love.

In Christ...James

Brother Bob · Sep 26, 2006

Your creation is no different than anyone else's. God loved His whole creation and said it is very good.

Jarthur001 · Sep 26, 2006

Brother Bob said:

Your creation is no different than anyone else's. God loved His whole creation and said it is very good.
Click to expand...

And when did God say this?

was it...

A) before the fall...

or..

B) after the fall?

jne1611 · Sep 26, 2006

Jarthur001 said:

And when did God say this?

was it...

A) before the fall...

or..

B) after the fall?
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing.

Is 1 John 2:2 Really a defence of Universal Atonement?

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