Is 1 John 2:2 Really a defence of Universal Atonement?

[jne1611]

I think you got nothing else to say. peace,

Nothing else to say until you start answering questions head on instead of dodging them.:BangHead:

 

[Brother Bob]

You just have certain answers in your head and when you run into someone like me you are stumped.
Ask James, he knows but he won't give up hardly ever.

 

[EdSutton]

I've not had the time to digest all this thoroughly, nor get really involved in detail, but let me take a slightly different tack from the topic heading, and ask this question.

Is I John 2:2 Really a defense of Limited Atonement?

"This question assumes, of course, that there are no theological solipsisms, here." Language Cop

"Thanks, L.C.!" - Ed

Ed

 

[Allan]

I will toss in my nickle, I think.

Since this is OP is dealing with the terminolgy (from the scripture passage he quotes) of "world", and that within this same relm of terminiology we also see the word "all" spoke of in this same light. Therefore it could/can also be injected in this thread as well, for they are both two words of the same dispute. Why? Because the dispute centers around how they refer (or not) to the Whole of Mankind with regard to atonement.

I just want to have a little fun, (so forgive me, my Calvinist brothers for it is truth but in fun as well) as I quote a Great Calvinist and defender of this system of Theology as he defends scripture over theology. He refers to "all" and not world but the same principle is to be applied to this situation. This quote however is dealing specifically with God desiring ALL men to be saved. Though it is speaking of saving specifically and not atonement - It is still an arguable point within the context of this thread due to the fact:
If atonement is limited then salvation is limited to those atoned for, but if salvation were open to ANY who would BELIEVE, then atonement would HAVE TO BE made for ALL but applied only to those who met the pre-stated condition - Believe!~

2Tim 2:3-6 is the source for the sermon:

“What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. “All men,” say they,—”that is, some men”: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said “some men” if he had meant some men. “All men,” say they; “that is, some of all sorts of men”: as if the Lord could not have said “all sorts of men” if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written “all men,” and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the “alls” according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, “Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth.” Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, “Who will have all men to be saved,” his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, “God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

(sermon Salvation by Knowing the Truth, spurgeon.org) :godisgood:

Ok Jarthor NOW you can say I quote C.H. Spurgeon. (WHich I do - But haven't on BB - Which BTW - I still want to know how you know I like to quote spurgeon?)

 

[webdog]

If atonement is limited then salvation is limited to those atoned for, but if salvation were open to ANY who would BELIEVE, then atonement would HAVE TO BE made for ALL but applied only to those who met the pre-stated condition - Believe!~

You bring up an excellent point. The calvinist preaches that man CAN come to Christ...BUT will only choose what his nature allows. With this line of thinking, limited atonement is an oxymoron.

 

[npetreley]

You bring up an excellent point. The calvinist preaches that man CAN come to Christ...BUT will only choose what his nature allows. With this line of thinking, limited atonement is an oxymoron.

I don't get your reasoning here.

 

[webdog]

I don't get your reasoning here.

Allan explained it more succinctly than I. I refer back to his post above mine.

 

[LeBuick]

You bring up an excellent point. The calvinist preaches that man CAN come to Christ...BUT will only choose what his nature allows. With this line of thinking, limited atonement is an oxymoron.

My Buddy, The Doctor, who is still waiting for his account to be activated so he can post, told me last night, when Jesus died every drop of his blood was pre-accounted for. Every drop. None shall be wasted as it was known how much would be needed and how many would come. He is a 5 point calvinist, what say you?

 

[webdog]

My Buddy, The Doctor, who is still waiting for his account to be activated so he can post, told me last night, when Jesus died every drop of his blood was pre-accounted for. Every drop. None shall be wasted as it was known how much would be needed and how many would come. He is a 5 point calvinist, what say you?

I would say your friend is wrong, as the Bible does not support limited atonement

 

[Blammo]

My Buddy, The Doctor, who is still waiting for his account to be activated so he can post, told me last night, when Jesus died every drop of his blood was pre-accounted for. Every drop. None shall be wasted as it was known how much would be needed and how many would come. He is a 5 point calvinist, what say you?

John 6:9-11 There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many? And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.

Don't put limits on God. I agree, not one drop of Jesus' blood was wasted, it has the power to cover the sins of every "whosoever" that believes.

Ask the "doctor": How much blood does it take to cover one sin? Does he have scripture to back it up? Or should we just take his word for it? Afterall, he is a "doctor".

 

[Brother Bob]

My Buddy, The Doctor, who is still waiting for his account to be activated so he can post, told me last night, when Jesus died every drop of his blood was pre-accounted for. Every drop. None shall be wasted as it was known how much would be needed and how many would come. He is a 5 point calvinist, what say you?

Well, I say your friend is wrong being a 5 point Calvinist but I agree not a drop of blood was wasted for the blood was presented to the Father for atonement and given out as those who believe to which none are lost. Your friend is wrong in saying it was pre-accounted for. It is for whosoever will believe and was shed for the whole world but you must believe to receive it.


1 Timothy, chapter 2
4: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[Jarthur001]

My Buddy, The Doctor, who is still waiting for his account to be activated so he can post, told me last night, when Jesus died every drop of his blood was pre-accounted for. Every drop. None shall be wasted as it was known how much would be needed and how many would come. He is a 5 point calvinist, what say you?

Well...I would say, your buddy must have read the Bible.

I bet your friend will agree with this verse and not change the meaning of the word "world"...

John 17:9
"I pray not for the world" ......humm Now that will make ya think

If He prayer not for the world, there must be a "world" for whom He did not die. What do ya think?

But then who did He pray for?
"But for them which You have given Me, for they are Yours."

I see...so then we have two groups, both are called "the world". Now...just how do we make of these fit together?


If no one has a idea...I have one that I will share with ya.

Does this not close the case once and for all?

 

[jne1611]

My Buddy, The Doctor, who is still waiting for his account to be activated so he can post, told me last night, when Jesus died every drop of his blood was pre-accounted for. Every drop. None shall be wasted as it was known how much would be needed and how many would come. He is a 5 point calvinist, what say you?

Sounds like your buddy knows what he is talking about.

 

[jne1611]

Well, I say your friend is wrong being a 5 point Calvinist but I agree not a drop of blood was wasted for the blood was presented to the Father for atonement and given out as those who believe to which none are lost. Your friend is wrong in saying it was pre-accounted for. It is for whosoever will believe and was shed for the whole world but you must believe to receive it.


1 Timothy, chapter 2
4: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

If it was not pre - accounted for. The who are the foreknown of
Rom. 8? All men? I think not.

 

[jne1611]

Well...I would say, your buddy must have read the Bible.

I bet your friend will agree with this verse and not change the meaning of the word "world"...

John 17:9
"I pray not for the world" humm

There must be a "world" for whom He did not die. But then who did He pray for?
"But for them which You have given Me, for they are Yours."

I see...so then we have two groups, both are called "the world". Now...just how do wwe make this fit together? If you have no idea...I have one that I will share with ya.

Does this not close the case once and for all?

Your right. Under the common interpretation presented on this thread. "world" means all mankind! Well, Well, were all in trouble! Christ did not pray for anybody!:tear:

 

[jne1611]

You just have certain answers in your head and when you run into someone like me you are stumped.
Ask James, he knows but he won't give up hardly ever.

I am always stumped when someone runs from questions.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Blammo]

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[jne1611]

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Is He talking about the whole world in that passage or Israel?

 

[Blammo]

Is He talking about the whole world in that passage or Israel?

Israel.

Did they obey? No
Did God know they would not obey? Yes
Did God make them not obey? No
Did they have the ability to obey? Yes

God is not playing games with man. God does not ask men to do what they are not able to do. Men are responsible for the choices they make. God is not.

 

[Brother Bob]

John 17:9
"I pray not for the world" ......humm Now that will make ya think

If He prayer not for the world, there must be a "world" for whom He did not die. What do ya think?

But then who did He pray for?
"But for them which You have given Me, for they are Yours."

If you pray for the world that their ways prevail James then you are partaker of their evil deeds! You don't want to do that do you James. Now if you want to pray for them to repent then you go right ahead James I am sure the Lord will be pleased.

Ha, His Apostles, there were only 12 and He had chosen them out of the world to be Apostles. Guess what, They believed also and followed Jesus.

If you believe also, He will choose you out of the world. You will be in the world but not of the world. Guess that blew that one sky high. There is a difference you know James. He told us not to bid them "God Speed" of we be partakers of their evil deeds. He was saying not to pray for evil James. Do you pray for evil James?

Romans 8:

Who= Those who had believed. After ye have heard the word of truth and after ye have believed.

He saw them believe, He called them, He predestinated them to be conformed to the image of His son. (Christlike), He justified them (by the blood of Christ), He Glorified them (which you have not seen yet but He has for He is not bound by time, He sees the end from the beginning). God is not like you or I and bound by time, He is everlasting to everlasting. He sees all, He sees your birth, your death, your resurrection. He knows all for He is all in all.

Well now, what ye gonna do whats ye gonna do!!

Well James;
Question?

1. God so loved the World, was this before the fall or after?