Is 1 John 2:2 Really a defence of Universal Atonement?

[Allan]

Since the OT Attonment is a picture of the what Christ would/did do, what did the OT priests do with all the left over blood that was not applied.

Lev 4:7,18 concerning Sin Attonement.

Lev 4:7 And the priest shall put [some] of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which [is] in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which [is at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

The OT attonement - the Priest would apply a small portion of the attoning blood to the horns of the alter (and or the Mercy Seat) and the rest of the attoning blood (larger portion) was to be poured out at the base of the alter and trampled under foot (for it was at the door of the congregation). Symbolizing that though all the nation was attoned for not all of the nation would recieve the attonement because some of them will not serve God. What is of NOTE is that ANY of the blood would even be poured out. Why? Because though it ALL was able to be the atoning blood, only that which was applied was the Blood of Atonement.

NT Example verse

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Also: like I stated earlier from Spurgeon, read the scripture for what it says. If God in His infinate understanding used the word "world" and "all" concerning atonment that is what He ment. For He could have used a multitude of other words but it appears these two (at least for this discussion) are the ones He used to convey His idea and plan.

 

[Southern]

Allan said:

Also: like I stated earlier from Spurgeon, read the scripture for what it says. If God in His infinate understanding used the word "world" and "all" concerning atonment that is what He ment. For He could have used a multitude of other words but it appears these two (at least for this discussion) are the ones He used to convey His idea and plan.

I have not been following this discussion so forgive me if I have misunderstood you.

It seems you are arguing that Spurgeon believed in a Universal Atonement. Is that what you are asserting?
See His "Christ's Limited Atonement":
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/etc/printer-friendly.asp?ID=402

Also, Are you arguing that the word "World" means the same thing everytime it is used? (John 12:19;Mark 1:5)

 

[Brother Bob]

He said concerning "atonement".

 

[Jarthur001]

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Well...this is a 1st for non-universialists. Most of the time only universialists post this verses for non-universialists see what happens if you study this in full.

I hardly ever quote John Calvin, but in the case I think it is owed. Calvin said this to Pighius, Calvin's Roman Catholic opponent.


Calvin...........

It is on the pretext that God declares that he does not will the death of one who dies, but that he should return and live. But if we interpret this according to [Pighius's] view, then why does he die whom God wills not to die? For it is written: But God is in heaven, he has done whatever he willed (Ps 115:3). Here certainly is the Gordian Knot, if you take that saying of Ezekiel, that God does not will the death of him who dies, to refer to his secret plan. For that reason it must be understood in the way that Augustine also explained it in many places: God leaves nothing undone which would lead to people being led back into the way of salvation if only they were in a healthy condition. As for the fact that they do not return when they are called, it is only the disease of their own wickedness which stands in their way. So God wills [preceptively] that the dying should should live (so far as it is right for us to judge his will) in that he helps man by all [kinds of] support, lest he should be able to complain that anything other than his own guilt stood in his way. But meanwhile God's secret plan, by which he passes over one and chooses another, remains his own, and one should not inquire too curiously into it if one does not want to be overwhelmed by [God's] glory. If Pighius grasped this, he would not hold so tenaciously to that false axiom about the equal distribution of grace...

...the whole of Scripture assigns the goodness of both root and fruit entirely to God alone ... When it urges us to devotion, to the fear of God, and to holiness of life, it teaches us we can attain all those thing only if it has been granted to us by God...[We acknowledge that] the human mind sees, but [only] when it has been enlightened. [We acknowledge that] human judgment decides and chooses, but under the control of the Spirit's guidance. [We acknowledge that] the human heart is willing, but after it has been remade by the hand of God. [We acknowledge that] man himself endeavors and acts and applies his powers to obedience to God, but [does this] in accordance with the measure of the grace which he has received. It is in vain that [Pighius] struggles, in extolling the goodness of God, to tie it to the necessity of its being equally accessible to all. For God himself speaks otherwise, judging that the praise of his goodness and mercy shines better if he exhibits the proof of it only in some, while in others he displays an example of his wrath and judgment...[Pighius says this is] to limit it. But God does not want it to be extolled as generous in such a way that it ceases to be free. Moreover, its freedom resides in the fact that he bestows it on those on whom he wills.

...he who opens the eyes of the mind to make himself understood is the very one who also opens hearts so that he is obeyed...What is it then to open [our hearts]? To receive the warning in our hearts, and to obey the exhortations. Pighius imagines that this is placed in our control, but God claims it as his. I will circumcise your heart, he says, so that you will hear my voice (Deut 30). Moses identifies the cause of their blindness, dullness, and obstinacy as being the fact that the Lord had not given them eyes to see, or ears to hear, or a heart to understand (Deut 29).

Calvin's Bondage and Liberation of the Will (pg. 197, 198-199)

 

[Brother Bob]

but that he should return and live

Dead in Sin. Not natural death.

Not God's Will that any perish.

Thats what we been saying all along that man chooses to not follow God.

 

[Southern]

Allan,

The following was left off of my last post:

Spurgeon argued against interpreting the word "World" and "All" the sameway in every passage:

"Now, that looks like a very, very great argument indeed on the other side of the question. For instance, look here. "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile."
taken from: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0181.htm

 

[Brother Bob]

All;
Is this before the fall that God so loved the world or after the fall?

John;
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[LeBuick]

How long does it take to get an account activated? I don't remember mine taking so long.

He was coming from here when he spoke of the blood being accounted for;

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

He contends the father knows how many children he will have and so he knew how much blood would be needed. There are people born of the devil who are not capable of hearing the voice of the Lord. What say you?

 

[Blammo]

Deuteronomy 30:15-20 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Are these the verses I am being referred to in Deuteronomy 30?

 

[Brother Bob]

He contends the father knows how many children he will have and so he knew how much blood would be needed. There are people born of the devil who are not capable of hearing the voice of the Lord. What say you?

Matthew, chapter 3
"9": And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

If He is able to raise up children unto Abraham from stones He certainly could of raised them up if they would of believed. They were unbelievers but time and chance has happened to all.

He died for all but we must believe to receive that blood applied to our soul and wash away our sins

1 Timothy,

chapter5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7: Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting

2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[Jarthur001]

Dead in Sin. Not natural death.

Not God's Will that any perish.

Thats what we been saying all along that man chooses to not follow God.

if you really believe this, then you have a major problem to over come

 

[Jarthur001]

All;
Is this before the fall that God so loved the world or after the fall?

John;
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Loved in 3:16 is the aorist tense so it carries no before of after. But I know you want more then this.

Being I feel this is speaking of the all of the elect from all over the world, He loved them before the fall and after.

when ever john 3:16 is posted freewillers forget about the next few verses.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

This is the same thing that is overlooked in John 1

 

[Jarthur001]

Deuteronomy 30:15-20 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Are these the verses I am being referred to in Deuteronomy 30?

Deut 30...and also 29

 

[Brother Bob]

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

One more verse please
Neither do they come to the light lest their deeds be reproved.

So if they will do something then they to can join the party like (believe)

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Dead in Sin. Not natural death.

Not God's Will that any perish.

Thats what we been saying all along that man chooses to not follow God.
James: if you really believe this, then you have a major problem to over come

Calvin; It is on the pretext that God declares that he does not will the death of one who dies, but that he should return and live.

BBob; If God declared such a thing it would happen, so either way Calvin is wrong.

 

[jne1611]

Israel.

Did they obey? No
Did God know they would not obey? Yes
Did God make them not obey? No
Did they have the ability to obey? Yes

God is not playing games with man. God does not ask men to do what they are not able to do. Men are responsible for the choices they make. God is not.

OK. Then I put the quest ion to you that Bob will not answer. Could Pharaoh have let the people go?

 

[jne1611]

How long does it take to get an account activated? I don't remember mine taking so long.

He was coming from here when he spoke of the blood being accounted for;

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

He contends the father knows how many children he will have and so he knew how much blood would be needed. There are people born of the devil who are not capable of hearing the voice of the Lord. What say you?

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
Not all are called. And so not all come.

 

[Brother Bob]

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
Not all are called. And so not all come.

27: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

You do err using that Scripture that way for that is not what is says at all. jeepers sounds like someone else who used to be on here by a different name.

No, not all are called, and predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son (Christlike), justified (by His Blood) and Glorified (which is yet to come).
Only those who believe!

 

[jne1611]

One more verse please
Neither do they come to the light lest their deeds be reproved.

So if they will do something then they to can join the party like (believe)




Calvin; It is on the pretext that God declares that he does not will the death of one who dies, but that he should return and live.

BBob; If God declared such a thing it would happen, so either way Calvin is wrong.

Don't you realize they ar not going to believe if God does not produce faith in them? Read the rest of the passage. Who comes to the light? Why?
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
God must produce the coming or man will reject and go to hell! And this coming is in context of His election of them to believe!
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Can't you see that the belief follows election. It does not precede it? God chose to salvation through faith, not because of faith. Those that are damned come from the same batch as us, the only difference in us is God's election for us not our election of God. We only chose God because He first chose us to believe.

 

[jne1611]

27: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

You do err using that Scripture that way for that is not what is says at all. jeepers sounds like someone else who used to be on here by a different name.

No, not all are called, and predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son (Christlike), justified (by His Blood) and Glorified (which is yet to come).
Only those who believe!

So prove me wrong by context instead of trying to look like a scholar while saying nothing at all.

 

[jne1611]

27: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

You do err using that Scripture that way for that is not what is says at all. jeepers sounds like someone else who used to be on here by a different name.
"Chosen" (Elected) people!

No, not all are called, and predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son (Christlike), justified (by His Blood) and Glorified (which is yet to come).
Only those who believe!

The context is salvation.
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
The calling makes the difference & not all are called.