Is 1 John 2:2 Really a defence of Universal Atonement?

[Brother Bob]

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest

Are you advocating works now? Or are you admitting that a man can believe which would be doing truth.

through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

Who did the believing? I think God already knows who He is.

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
The calling makes the difference & not all are called.

No, just those who believe.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness

Are you saying no Jews or Greeks are saved or believers are they all lost, is that what you are saying?

 

[jne1611]

While we are here. Why don't you explain why you believe that God is going to send a strong delusion to those who He loves that they all might be damned.

 

[jne1611]

Are you advocating works now? Or are you admitting that a man can believe which would be doing truth.

The key to the passage is that his deeds are wrought in God. That means produced. even his faith!

 

[jne1611]

Are you advocating works now? Or are you admitting that a man can believe which would be doing truth.


Who did the believing? I think God already knows who He is.

Who gave the faith? Man or God? Did man believe on his own? Or with the faith that God gave him?

 

[jne1611]

Are you advocating works now? Or are you admitting that a man can believe which would be doing truth.


Who did the believing? I think God already knows who He is.



No, just those who believe.

The belief makes the difference. I'll agree. But the calling makes the belief possible! No call, No belief & not all are called for "whom He called, them He also justified" Are all men justified?

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

Matthew, chapter 3
"9": And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

I fail to see where this has anything to do with the atonement. Maybe I'm over looking it.
******

Your all verses.........

This is the same old arguement of the Methodist given 1st by John Wesley..."The all verses where ALL means ALL...and nothing else. We need only look at the Bible to show the error.

In the Bible "all" often does not mean all universally. In other words, all does not always mean all.

1 Cor. 6.12 where the apostle Paul writes: "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable." Obviously, one cannot take all in the universal sense. Paul probably means all things lawful, are lawful for him.

In Rom. 5.18 Paul writes: "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." By Adams sin, Paul says, all are condemned. However, are all justified by Christ's one act of righteousness? Unless one adopts a universal salvation view, the word "all" in the phrase, "justification of life to all men" must be limited. Agree?

In Acts 22.15 we read: "For you shall be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard." Did God literally mean Paul was to witness to "all" men? No!!! Clearly Paul was to be a witness to all kinds of men, which he was.

Now that will preach..

There are examples also with the word "world."

In Rom. 11.12 Paul writes: "Now if their transgression be the riches of the world and their failure be the riches for the Gentiles, how much more will be their fulfillment." World, in this context, cannot mean everyone since it does not refer to the Jews. One is forced by the context to limit the word "world" to mean Gentiles.


In 2 Cor. 5.19 Paul writes: "God was in Christ reconciliating the world." God, however, is not reconciling everyone whoever lived, therefore, "world" must be limited. Paul himself limits it in the second half of the verse: "Not counting their trespasses against them." These are the "world" God is reconciling to Himself.

Since the Bible often reduces or limits universal terms, Calvinists are not changing words in the Bible when we reduce these terms in certain freewiller.. so called "proof texts". We just use the biblical data for particular redemption, and only apply the biblical principle of allowing Bible to interpret The Bible when we limit these terms.

Now lets see if, freewillers also reduce universal terms.

Paul says in Ephesians that God "works all things after the counsel of His will." Can a freewiller say that God works ALL things after the counsel of His will?

I doubt it.


Calvinists understand 1 Tm. 2.4 to mean all kinds of people.

In 1 Tm. 2.4 and 6 "all" is used as in... all kinds of people, Jew, Greek, barbarian, women, etc. It cannot mean every person whoever lived. The context of the passage will not support this view. Surely Paul is not saying that Christians should pray for every person, but for all kinds of, all classes of people. I have a idea...lets ask a non Calvinist...Shank

Shank, in case some do not know, is a staunch Arminian writer....

http://crisispub.com/life_in_the_son_by_robert_shank.htm

Robert Shank..Elect in the Son

"Have we gone to our knees and buried our faces in our hands and wept before God for all men? - for the mighty and the lowly, the rich and the poor, the well fed and the hungry, the wicked and the "good," the responsible and the lawless, men in the Kremlin and men in the White House, the black, the white, the red, the yellow . . . all men. When once we truly have prayed for all men, . . . we may understand something more of the mercies of "God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth" (1 Tm. 2.4)."

In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Are you advocating works now? Or are you admitting that a man can believe which would be doing truth.


Who did the believing? I think God already knows who He is.



No, just those who believe.
The belief makes the difference.

Now, you getting it.

The belief makes the difference. I'll agree. But the calling makes the belief possible! No call, No belief & not all are called for "whom He called, them He also justified" Are all men justified?

Well now, I see you not been into a God from everlasting to everlasting, a God who foreknows all things, A God who is all in all.

Why do you think He calls them
1. Because He sees them believe!!
2. Everything hinges on belief.

 

[jne1611]

Now, you getting it.

Check the rest of the post.

 

[Brother Bob]

James; Here is where it means ALL, WORLD etc

He died for all but we must believe to receive that blood applied to our soul and wash away our sins
1 Timothy,
chapter5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7: Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting
2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[Jarthur001]

Bob,

Is the main goal of God to save ALL of mankind?

 

[jne1611]

James; Here is where it means ALL, WORLD etc

He died for all but we must believe to receive that blood applied to our soul and wash away our sins
1 Timothy,
chapter5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7: Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting
2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

You apply those Scriptures to people who will burn in hell as well as to the elect. Don't you realize that you are saying that Christ paid for their sins & yet they still perish? He satisfied God on their behalf & yet they still perish? Their sin debt has been canceled, taken away. They have been reconciled to God, but they still perish. How could you say that payment was not waisted.

 

[Jarthur001]

James; Here is where it means ALL, WORLD etc

And when the verse says..Ransom for many...what does it mean then? all?

 

[LeBuick]

Bob,

Is the main goal of God to save ALL of mankind?

Depends on if you believe the Bible or not;

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Brother Bob]

James: quote.
Bob,

Is the main goal of God to save ALL of mankind?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Jarthur001]

Depends on if you believe the Bible or not;

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

ok...so let me ask again....

Based on how you see the Bible, is the goal of God to save all mankind?

 

[jne1611]

ok...so let me ask again....

Based on how you see the Bible, is the goal of God to save all mankind?

If it is. He has already failed.

 

[Brother Bob]

James; Here is where it means ALL, WORLD etc

And when the verse says..Ransom for many...what does it mean then? all?

For the life of me I can not believe God spoke out of both sides of His mouth James.

1 Timothy,
chapter5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[Brother Bob]

ok...so let me ask again....

Based on how you see the Bible, is the goal of God to save all mankind?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It was His will James; If God wanted to He could of made man where all would be saved but God made man subject to vanity. That was God's goal, now God's Will was that all would believe but being God in His Sovereignity made man subject to vanity, man went astray.

God's goal was to make man subject to vanity and that is exactly what He did.

If it was His goal to save man, He would, but its His Will that they all believe.

His goal is to provide a way where all can be saved, that He also did.

God pulls no man, including Calvinist by the hair of the head to Salvation.

 

[jne1611]

For the life of me I can not believe God spoke out of both sides of His mouth James.

1 Timothy,
chapter5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Well that's what you have got Him doing from one end of your doctrine to the other. To think God is going to cast to hell those who He loves & sent Christ to save. But He loves them.

 

[LeBuick]

ok...so let me ask again....

Based on how you see the Bible, is the goal of God to save all mankind?

I see the Bible how it was written. It's all I have to go by when understanding my God. He sent his son to die for the sin's of the World (Jn 3:16). I take this act of giving at face value.