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Is Abortion Murder?
- Thread starter C.S. Murphy
- Start date
Let's deal with reality??
As long as Christians keep giving people ways to escape the consequences of sin they will see no need for a savior.
Will abortion happen? Yes!! Does that mean I should endorse it? No way!! Does that mean that Jesus endorses it? NO way!!
Do we accept the fact that people are always going to drive drunk and just tell them to be careful behind the wheel or do we prosecute them for their actions and try to teach them that they are wrong?
DO we accept the fact that kids are molested and say "oh. . it's life. Somebody is going to have the urge to rape a kid. We might as well find a way to let that person feed his urges"??? No way, man.
Abortion is the same. We do not accept somethign just because it is going to happen. For every inch that we give, the world takes 200 miles. Further, we have no right to give in. If we truly are Christians, which means "Christlike", we would not give in. . we would stand solid on these issues.
Why is there no prayer in schools? Why is creationalism not taught in schools? Why are Christians being persecuted in America? Because we have given in too much as it is. There are consequences for our actions and we must teach the world (starting with the church) this. We can not keep kissing the pet sins of this world and saying "it's ok. . the baby's gone. . now go sleep with somebody else. If you get pregnant again we will kill that one, too."
As long as Christians keep giving people ways to escape the consequences of sin they will see no need for a savior.
Will abortion happen? Yes!! Does that mean I should endorse it? No way!! Does that mean that Jesus endorses it? NO way!!
Do we accept the fact that people are always going to drive drunk and just tell them to be careful behind the wheel or do we prosecute them for their actions and try to teach them that they are wrong?
DO we accept the fact that kids are molested and say "oh. . it's life. Somebody is going to have the urge to rape a kid. We might as well find a way to let that person feed his urges"??? No way, man.
Abortion is the same. We do not accept somethign just because it is going to happen. For every inch that we give, the world takes 200 miles. Further, we have no right to give in. If we truly are Christians, which means "Christlike", we would not give in. . we would stand solid on these issues.
Why is there no prayer in schools? Why is creationalism not taught in schools? Why are Christians being persecuted in America? Because we have given in too much as it is. There are consequences for our actions and we must teach the world (starting with the church) this. We can not keep kissing the pet sins of this world and saying "it's ok. . the baby's gone. . now go sleep with somebody else. If you get pregnant again we will kill that one, too."
One more dose of reality.
When you stand before God, what do you think his reply will be to you saying "I didn't think it was alive"?
If a mother kills her child she will have to answer, if you endorse abortion and counsel others that it is ok, YOU will have to answer.
When you stand before God, what do you think his reply will be to you saying "I didn't think it was alive"?
If a mother kills her child she will have to answer, if you endorse abortion and counsel others that it is ok, YOU will have to answer.
God knows everything, even who will abort their child. He would not place Jesus in a pregnacy that could be aborted, miscarried, deformed, harmed in any way. You should give God more credit that you have. He isn't at the mercy of Original Sin, we are.</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the rsponse post-it but that didn't come even close as a answer. Maybe you misunderstood the HEART of this scenario so I will ask again:
To be more specific, was or was not Jesus a living human being upon conception by our devine God? This is easy, YES or NO. Now please don't say YES because it was by God and not man!
God Bless..........Alex
PS: You are SO right that abortions will continue till the end of time as we know it BUT I believe that if we all get together stating to our government reps that it is nothing but murder, then maybe something would be done to elinimate much of it in the good old USA. We can't make and enforce the laws, but they can, to some degree. The bigger problem that now exists along with this one, is that humans are starting to kill each other as one would kill rats. Both issues go along with the collapse of any morals and the belief in God/Jesus. I asked someone awhile back, can we as Christians, pray enough to save the world? And the answer was YES as that is what God wants to happen. It is we who fail Him, not He who fails us. I have always wondered if all who hold fast to their bibical convictions on the MB's are as bold when face to face. I am not as bold as I should be, but I am pretty forward with a one on one.
God Bless..........Alex
[ August 24, 2002, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: Alex ]
JasonW
You have a great passage here that tends to prove the Bibles position that life begins with the first breath not while in the body being formed. I will use scripture against scripture.
NIV
Ecclesiastes 11:4-5
4 Whoever watches the wind will not plant;
whoever looks at the clouds will not reap.
5 As you do not know the path of the wind,
or how the body is formed [1] in a mother's womb,
so you cannot understand the work of God,
the Maker of all things.
(child instead of body in KJV)
Let's compare this to Genesis 2:11
Torah: G-d then formed the man, dust from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the breath of life. And so man became a living soul.
NIV 7 the Lord God formed the man [5] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
In Eccl. we find that man is formed in the womb. In Gen we find man is formed by God from the dust. We can assume that God formed man complete with every part needed to come to life, this includes blood, organs, fingernails, a fully functional brain and every other needed. All waiting for the "Breath" before coming to "life". God formed Adam, but it says that the womb forms the body (child).
We can drop the argument of names used like (child/man) since Gen. says "man" was formed then he became alive. So certainly a child can be formed before life enters it also.
We have three common occurances in both scriptures happening.
1. The body is formed.
2. Each body is without having taken a first breath.
3. Each body is complete in DNA, parts,blood, brain, everything as it is formed.
Everything is set waiting for the first breath to occur.
Now it is important to note that God said he Breathed into man's nostrils. God could have started life anyway he wished. After all he is God. He could have commanded the man to come to life, he didn't. He could have sent a spirit into his body and make it come to life. He didn't. He breathed into his lungs. It was the breath that brought him to life, and nothing else. Genesis is very clear about before breath and after breath. Before, no life no Spirit. After Breath, life and we can assume Spirit.
You have a great passage here that tends to prove the Bibles position that life begins with the first breath not while in the body being formed. I will use scripture against scripture.
NIV
Ecclesiastes 11:4-5
4 Whoever watches the wind will not plant;
whoever looks at the clouds will not reap.
5 As you do not know the path of the wind,
or how the body is formed [1] in a mother's womb,
so you cannot understand the work of God,
the Maker of all things.
(child instead of body in KJV)
Let's compare this to Genesis 2:11
Torah: G-d then formed the man, dust from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the breath of life. And so man became a living soul.
NIV 7 the Lord God formed the man [5] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
In Eccl. we find that man is formed in the womb. In Gen we find man is formed by God from the dust. We can assume that God formed man complete with every part needed to come to life, this includes blood, organs, fingernails, a fully functional brain and every other needed. All waiting for the "Breath" before coming to "life". God formed Adam, but it says that the womb forms the body (child).
We can drop the argument of names used like (child/man) since Gen. says "man" was formed then he became alive. So certainly a child can be formed before life enters it also.
We have three common occurances in both scriptures happening.
1. The body is formed.
2. Each body is without having taken a first breath.
3. Each body is complete in DNA, parts,blood, brain, everything as it is formed.
Everything is set waiting for the first breath to occur.
Now it is important to note that God said he Breathed into man's nostrils. God could have started life anyway he wished. After all he is God. He could have commanded the man to come to life, he didn't. He could have sent a spirit into his body and make it come to life. He didn't. He breathed into his lungs. It was the breath that brought him to life, and nothing else. Genesis is very clear about before breath and after breath. Before, no life no Spirit. After Breath, life and we can assume Spirit.
Right... like they have cut down on illegal drug use. It is easier for a child to get weed than it is to buy beer. Once you make something illegal you can't control it anymore. I'm not for legalizing drugs but you get my point in regard to abortion. It will happen. We know for sure women are alive an have a lot to lose. We know for sure if we outlaw abortion those women will start dying. Anyone who takes a stand on either side could have blood on thier hands. This is the catch 22 that original sin mandates we deal with. Since God made the rules, I look to his Book to play the best for humans that I know are alive and have a "real" life (in more ways than one.)
If Adam, who was not under original sin at the time he was formed, didn't come to life until his first breath as Gen 2:4 states, then Christ too was not required to be a living human being until he took his first breath.
So you can have a virgin birth with no original sin attached and not come to life until the first breath according to the Bible. However, we don't know all the possibilities of divinity etc. so we can't really address this question and it has no relevance to the topic.
You know my stand on the virgin birth so this whole question is not a valid question.
Right... like they have cut down on illegal drug use. It is easier for a child to get weed than it is to buy beer. Once you make something illegal you can't control it anymore. I'm not for legalizing drugs but you get my point in regard to abortion. It will happen. We know for sure women are alive an have a lot to lose. We know for sure if we outlaw abortion those women will start dying. Anyone who takes a stand on either side could have blood on thier hands. This is the catch 22 that original sin mandates we deal with. Since God made the rules, I look to his Book to play the best for humans that I know are alive and have a "real" life (in more ways than one.)</font>[/QUOTE]You still didn't answer was or was not Jesus a living human frm conception? It's ok if you don't want to, that is your choice. As for what you indicated about laws and drugs, does this make it less right for us to make a stand against abortion for God? Your reason is a lame duck, at best.
God Bless..........Alex
As the norm, you missed my point. Your point was that the government can stop or cut down illegal abortions. Mine was they can't... look at the drug problem. The implication you should have taken and brought up is that it is up to the Church to educate women not to abort, it is up to the schools to educate girls not to abort. You can't depend on laws for anything except to fill our prisons with people who violate laws. It does nothing to change behavior.
As the norm, you missed my point. Your point was that the government can stop or cut down illegal abortions. Mine was they can't... look at the drug problem. The implication you should have taken and brought up is that it is up to the Church to educate women not to abort, it is up to the schools to educate girls not to abort. You can't depend on laws for anything except to fill our prisons with people who violate laws. It does nothing to change behavior.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, I guess I did misunderstand, to a degree.
This would have to be another topic to continue as I was implying that if it would be labeled murder, and the DEATH penality carried out, then YES, it would make a difference. As you said, " Many women will die anyway having abortions".(Not an exact quote), but close enough.God Bless..........Alex
onevoice, you have created a fallacy here. Abortion is not the same as other crimes.
In a molestation case if you stop the molester, the child will not be molested, but if you stop the child from being molested, it doesn't stop the molester from molesting other childen.
In abortion if you stop the fetus' from being aborted, you don't stop mothers from dying from back ally abortions. If you stop back alley abortions by making it legal, you still have fetus' being prevented from being born.
I hope this clears up my point that I was trying to make.
By making laws against molesters, we help the molesters stop and the kids from being molested.
By making a law against abortions, we now kill mothers who will elect illegal venues.
Its not the same. My point was that it is a NO Win situation as I hope you now can see.
No, more on the line of:
"Your Book indicated life didn't start until the first Breath so I started trying to save women who I know were being killed due to unsafe abortion". What was that Lord? I was right and they were wrong? It save a young woman who would have died earlier but instead she gave birth to George Bush the 4th and he wiped out the terrorists? Well, whatever I could do to help. Hey, that's a great looking crown. What...Benny Hinn didn't make it up here... well that's a real shame Lord. Thanks for the crown Lord. Where is the closest computer, I need to log on to BB?"
[ August 24, 2002, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]
I didn't read all of the post on this thread, just enough to know that post-it, has lost-it....his mind that is! When Mary spoke to Elizabeth, what did little John the Baptist do in her womb? Why was that post-it? BTW, you use Adam as your "picture" of when Life begins...'cause God breathed in his nostrils. Well, Adam was created, not conceived. All of us were conceived, not created. We're different, obviously.
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction
Asked and answered before. Movement occurs before birth, it is rather common.
If you read scripture which others have posted, you will find the word "formed" in the womb used. You will also find that Adam was also "formed".
I would then suggest that you stop wrestling with it and accept what scripture is telling us in plain english that life begins with first breath.
Post-it, Like I said, I didn't read all of the threads. Just enough to know that some folks argue just for argument sake, others because they claim to be something there not! All I know, is that all born again Christians, realize that Life starts at conception, that God clearly regards that life as precious, and that abortion is murder. You really need to take a look at Matt. 7:20-23!
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Titus 1:13
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Titus 1:13